The “Friendzone” is a Myth, and You are Not a Nice Guy

“Friendzone” is one of those terms that I absolutely cannot stand.  While the term’s been around since the 90s (most sources credit the TV show “Friends” with its origin), it has become much more popular in the last couple of years, and now seems to be a fixture in common parlance.  The Internet is rife with the rants and whinings of the “friendzoned”.  Of course, this whining usually has the opposite effect of what was intended — its only purpose, really, is to let me know that the person using the term is an asshole and not worth being friends with in the first place.

For those unfamiliar with it, Urban Dictionary defines the friendzone as “What you attain after you fail to impress a woman you’re attracted to.”  Wikipedia’s definition is a little bit more honest (as well as being gender neutral):  “the friend zone refers to a platonic relationship where one person wishes to enter into a romantic relationship, while the other does not.

Now, I’m not saying that wanting “more” from a friendship with a person who you find attractive is always a bad thing.  I actually prefer to date people with whom I’ve already built a friendship, as it’s easier to trust a person who you already know and like.  The problem is that “friendzone” is generally presented as a negative thing, as though being friends is some sort of “consolation prize”.  It creates the impression that you were only in it for the possibility of sex, and if that possibility is removed, you’re really not interested in continuing the friendship.

I’ve lost my share of friendships this way, and the usual way of things is this:  you meet, chat, realize that you have a lot in common.  You hang out more often, find shared interests that you can do together.  You talk about all sorts of different topics.  And at some point, one party falls for the other.  The crush is revealed and – oh no – it’s not mutual.  Awkward.  Everybody feels kind of bad.  You say that you won’t let it change anything, and then … they disappear.  They’re never available to hang out any more.  Calls go unanswered.  You’ve lost a friend, because they couldn’t deal with the embarrassment of being sexually rejected.

It’s pretty unpleasant, not to mention rather insulting, to think that a friendship you’ve invested time and energy into was only a plan to get into your pants.  And it can be heartbreaking when someone you’ve spent a lot of time with, and built a connection with, decides that they don’t want to be around you any more because you won’t offer them sex.

There can be dozens of different reasons why people who are compatible as friends may not feel a sexual attraction for each other.  The simplest explanation is physical attraction (or the lack thereof) — there’s not much that you can do if you just simply aren’t attracted to the person.  But there are countless other factors as well.  Maybe your wants and needs in a relationship are different (ie, if one person is polyamorous and the other is monogamous, it’s unlikely to work).  Maybe your future plans don’t mesh (ie, one person wants kids and the other doesn’t).  Maybe there’s already someone else, or you’re not over a recent breakup, or you’re still figuring out your sexuality, or you’re simply happy with being single.

Whatever the reason, deciding that friendship, without sex or other “benefits”, just isn’t quite “good enough” for you?  It’s an asshole move.  Ditching a friend because you’ve decided it’s not “going anywhere” makes you a total jerkbag asshat.  At least the person you’re dumping as a friend is probably better off without you, but that really is a totally shitty consolation prize.

The thing is, if you’re using the term “friendzone” to describe your relationship with a person?  You probably aren’t really their friend.  Friends care about each other as more than just objects, and want one another to be happy.  It’s fair to be disappointed when you fall for a person and they don’t fall for you — it’s a shitty thing to happen.  But grow up, be an adult about it, and respect their feelings.  You’ll get over it and find somebody else to crush on soon enough.  If you’re really their friend, you want them to find somebody great to be in a relationship with (even if that person isn’t you) — and they’ll want the same for you, as well.  You might even be able to have some good discussions with them, now, about why they don’t see you as a romantic possibility and about how you can go about improving yourself to become a better “catch” for when the right one comes along.  If you’re really lucky, you might even gain a “wingman“, to help you with approaching and attracting the next person you develop a crush on.

Now, I know what some of you are thinking right now, so I’m just going to nip this in the bud — substitute alternative pronouns if necessary.  “But I’m really a nice guy!  Why can’t she see that I’d be perfect for her?”

To start with?  No.  No, you’re probably not a nice guy.  Because the guys who complain about how “nice guys finish last” and “girls only like to date assholes”?  Are usually not particularly nice.  They are, instead, what is known as a “Nice Guy” (note the capitalization and quotation marks).

In the world of the “Nice Guy”, people to whom you’re attracted are not seen as individual human beings.  They are interchangeable objects, into whom you deposit token gestures of how “Nice” you are.  Paying compliments.  Giving gifts.  Doing favours.  You count up all of these gestures like notches on a headboard, and expect that at some point you’ll be “paid back” with sex or a relationship, once the person is sufficiently in your “debt”.  Never mind that their feelings might be different from yours — they “owe” you, for all that you’ve “given” them.  It’s a shitty way to treat another person.  If you were truly their friend, you’d do favours and make such gestures without expecting anything in return, because that’s how friends treat each other.  You’d be upset if one of your friends gave you a gift, and then turned around and said “now where’s my present?”, so don’t do that to people you’re attracted to.

In addition to this, even if you are an excellent match?  They need to come to that conclusion themselves.  It might be a case of “right person, wrong time”, and if you stick around and are a genuine friend (and not a “Nice Guy”) to them, they may eventually reach that conclusion.  Don’t sit around waiting for it, of course, and certainly don’t pester them about it — seek other relationships and friendships in the meantime, and leave the ball in their court — but don’t consider the conversation over.  People grow, and change, and sometimes an initial rejection will turn into something different over time.

But wait — what’s that, Morpheus?

That’s right — there’s one other category that I haven’t dealt with yet.  That’s the people who “friendzone” themselves, because they never even bothered to say anything about their feelings.

This can be one of the most hurtful things to experience.  You make friends with a person, spend a bunch of time together … and then out of the blue, they stop calling, stop being available, and the friendship simply ends.  No explanation, you didn’t have a fight or a falling out, it’s just over.

And then you hear from a mutual friend: “oh, X had a crush on you, and you didn’t like them back, so they decided to end it”.  And you’re floored.  You didn’t know they felt that way.  Were there signs that you should have seen?  Why didn’t they talk to you about it?  It hurts to think that a person felt so intimidated by you that they found it easier to cut you off than it was to just talk to you about it.

This is one of the stupidest things that a person can do.  In addition to the usual problems associated with “friendzoning” (you’re treating the person as an object rather than a person, you’re more interested in sex and your own desires than you are in the friendship and their wants & needs, etc), there’s the added hurt of being completely left out of the decision-making process.  Maybe you hadn’t thought of that person as a possible sexual partner, but knowing that they feel that way about you might have left you feeling open to exploring the possibility.  But they chose for you; they decided how you felt (and took away your ownership and agency of your own emotions), acted on it, and you didn’t even get a say.

So to sum up:

  • Never use the term “friendzone”.  It’s a term only used by assholes.
  • If you’re attracted to a friend, and they don’t feel the same way about you, respect them enough to accept their decision and move on.
  • Cutting a person out of your life because they won’t have sex with you is shallow and childish, and not the way you’d treat a friend.
  • If you’re attracted to a person, say something.  Don’t assume that they are psychic, and don’t assume anything about their feelings in return.

106 Responses to “The “Friendzone” is a Myth, and You are Not a Nice Guy”

  1. I don´t know if I have a bad view of friendzone or you have. Because “friendzone” is not necessary connection to sexual encounter with a female friend, well I really hope so.

    Is simply to fall in love with a friend that you know will never happen.

    I don´t think so that the people that believe in friendzone are all bad, I mean, I believe in friendzone and yes I know I am not a nice guy, but not being nice guy is from my attitude, not for believing in the zone.

    I don’t go away when I fall in friendzone with a girl, I am sure that there are more guys like me.
    My best friend is a female friend and we are in friendzone. In a time I had a crush on her, but she had not, so we still friends. I did not run away

    Maybe I created my own version of friendzone, but I think was created to say to a female friend that is okey to be friends and that I won´t try to fall in love with her.

    Also, If a guy have a crush with a girl, he need to ask her a date from the beginning, some guys don´t have the courage to do that and think that being friends is the best way to make the girl fall in love with him, but isn’t. So from the beginning is necessary to differ if a man wants a girl that is a friend or a girlfriend. Don´t you think?

    • You seem to have missed the point of this post. That point being, that “friendzone” is an insulting and objectifying term, and that people shouldn’t use it to refer to someone who is actually their friend.

      When you say that you are “in the friendzone”, it carries a note of negativity (as opposed to saying, “we are friends”, which is a positive thing). It says to the world, “I want more but I can’t have it”. It’s whiny, selfish, and devalues the friendship. It’s a shitty way to treat a person that you claim to be friends with.

      • Kaiichi Says:

        OR, it’s simply a term to describe a situation. It’s a direct term that brings the entirety of the situation to bear. Because it carries a negative connotation t some people doesn’t make it negative. For example, there are some people who hate the color blue so much, that they feel the word ‘blue’ carries a negative connotation. If a person takes a word in a positive, or negative manner that truly has neither attached to it’s meaning, then that is there prerogative, not a stated fact. Just saying…

      • And yet whenever a girl/guy rejects a friend who makes advances its always “Let’s just be friends”. Just… that pretty much devalues friendship too.

      • It is an insult that you – having a different gender – are good enough to be talked to but not good enough to have sex with.

        There is no friendship on one side and sexual relationship on the other. A sexual relationship is a friendship with less limits.

        And you don’t have to be overtly sexual either. I don’t buy into the assumption that a woman is too dumb to notice that you fancy her and you need to outright say it for that idiot to get it.

        They know it very well.

  2. I’ve never personally used the term ‘friendzone’ in a negative way. Honestly, I do agree with much of this post; ‘friendzoned people’ are normally assholes, or in some cases I’ve experienced, major try hards. I personally feel I’ve been ‘friendzoned’ many times, but not in the way it’s so often described by people.

    I personally think the term Gay Friend is much more fitting. In fact if I was considered a Gay Friend despite not being homosexual, I think I’d feel rather complimented.

    Friendzoning is, more or a less, just a mans way of blaming the woman for it. I like being friendzoned, because I much prefer having female friends to male friends. If I ended up dating every female I met, I’d probably have none.

  3. This is a good post with a lot of great points (especially the “Nice Guy” stuff, SOO true). But I feel like it misses one of the major points of why the delusional term “friend zone” (used more often than not by males) is such complete and utter bullshit: guys who cannot handle the fact that a girl was NEVER and WOULD NEVER be attracted to him for whatever reason, cling on to the absurd idea that they’ve been rejected, not because she finds him unattractive, but because he was just “too nice” and became too good a “friend” to her, which started the mythical chain reaction in the female brain to put him in the “friend zone.” Oh no, it’s not simply that she finds him unattractive, it’s because she must want to be treated like shit.

    • What you’re describing is really just another form of objectification. It assumes that the woman in question is stupid, blind, or simply “doesn’t know what’s best for her” … and of course, the male-person in question *does* know what’s best for her. Silly woman, actually trying to think and form opinions and have likes and dislikes about things. How completely invalid, eh? Haha.

  4. Princess Says:

    While I agree with what you’ve said about people who whine about being “friend-zoned,” or think that they’re being rejected for being “Nice Guys,” I can also say, that as a female, while I don’t refer to it as being friend-zoned, I have been in situations where it was just too embarrassing and difficult to continue a friendship after being rejected. I wasn’t angry that I couldn’t get into some guy’s pants. I didn’t think the person rejecting me owed me anything. But it’s not a good feeling to see someone and be reminded of their rejection of you, and to feel your face burn, or to feel stupid that you even went out on a limb and confessed your crush, every time you see that friend. While you truly enjoy the friend’s company, sometimes, those negative feelings override the positive ones. No one should be shamed for ending or fading out a friendship when they feel it’s necessary for self-preservation.

    • Well said. Whether a person can handle being put in a “friendzone” really does depend on their situation and circumstances. For some people it’s perfectly fine to accept being in a strictly platonic relationship, but sometimes it can also be like being stuck in a car without gas in the middle of a boiling desert, and your only options are to sit in that boiling car going nowhere hoping the person you have feelings for will eventually come around and give you the gas to move, or ditch the car and walk away. Yea sure that person may not in any way “owe” you a relationship but if being stuck in a friendship that won’t go anywhere only reminds you of what you’ll never have is there really much incentive to want to keep going out of your way for that person. Sometimes it’s better to throw those people in your “fair-weather friendzone” or “acquaintance zone” and try move on.

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  6. alien grayce Says:

    I see that you are overgeneralizing based on your personal experiences with these so called nice guys. Let me make an an anlogy for you. This is no different than people constantly demonizing people with Borderline Personality Disorder as “dangerous monsters” that need to be avoided. Many would say, “you dont treat the borderline, you avoid them”. People dont take into consideration that these people may have had extremely traumatic pasts such as being victims of sexual abuse and their “borderline traits” are coping mechanisms to deal with that pain. Crack pot MRAs are constantly bashing borderline women. They dont take into consideration that there are an equal amount of men who suffer from this disorder. I hope you dont do the same. This is just my opinion. You are free to disagree with me. I dont know if I am borderline but I have very deep sympathy for these people. Maybe is my “nice guyness” (sarcasm).

    • I don’t see at all what BPD has to do with this, and I’m offended by your implication that I am a BPD-basher: 2 of the people I love most in all the world have BPD, and I am a strong advocate for mental health awareness/understanding & better treatment options for all. Being a “Nice Guy” has nothing to do with mental health, and nowhere have I equated the two things.

  7. alien grayce Says:

    I never implied that you were a BPD basher. I dont know you or your situation. I never even said that you equated the two things. Im telling you what the dynamics that I see between Borderlines and the stereotypical “traits” of these so called.. well let me just say men with low self esteem who call themselves nice guys. I have read a very interesting post on Tumblr that is similar to what I am talking about. Here it is: “Fuck Yeah Borderline People.[TRIGGER WARNING: Albeist tropes about insecurity; abuse, victim blaming]”. I dont know how to post the site where you could just click on it but that is what it’s called. It is on Tumblr where people with BPD post their experiences and try to find support. But if you read the article, you will see what I am talking about. To me the does show some similarites the traits Borderlines and nice guys with insecurity issues. And the the person who posted was standing up for both! BTW It has been a long time since I last posted that previous comment but I am trying very hard to get an assessment of another mental disorder in addition to the ones I have. But my services are very limited and the mental health care system where I live isnt’ all that great. And I have showed a lot of symptoms of both BPD and AvPd for most of my life mainly due to traumatic childhood events.

  8. Ah, so you admit that you were simply creating a straw man argument by equating two utterly unrelated things.

    As I already mentioned, two of my closest loved ones have BPD diagnoses. Neither of them are “creepy” or “Nice Guys” or any other such things. The fact that you persist in equating the two things is insulting and reveals a staggering lack of understanding of the condition.

    And in any case, your point is utterly irrelevant. No one — NO ONE — ever “owes” another person a chance. It doesn’t matter what you’re struggling with: BPD, social anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, or simple “social ineptitude” — it does not matter. At all. Because no matter what your situation, no other human being is ever responsible for your actions. If you are legally considered a capable adult, then no one is responsible for taking care of you. No one owes you extra time, extra teaching, or extra chances. You have to figure out your own limitations, your own stumbling blocks, and figure out your own methods of overcoming them.

    Life isn’t easy or fair. Being “socially inept”, or having a mental health issue, doesn’t mean that other people have to give you extra chances or extra considerations.

    And this is especially true when we’re talking about romantic or sexual relationships, where “chemistry” is so integral. No one is obligated to attempt to build chemistry where they simply do not feel it. Responsible, mature adults learn how to deal with rejection + be grown-ups about it. They don’t complain about being “friend-zoned” or bitch about the situation or blame the un-interested party.

  9. alien grayce Says:

    Well let me tell you something. You dont know my situation. You say this is a “straw man argument”. Youre using a shaming tactic which I will not buy into. “Oh thats just life” “It is what it is” “man up” “get over it”. It aint always that simple. If I see the bullshit that goes on around me with society in general, especially here in AmeriKKKa, then Im the crazy psycho. I am going beyond the whole “friendzone thing”. Im looking at our society in general. Of course being socially inept does not give us “extra chances” or special privilidges to do whatever the hell we want. Of course we need to take responsibility for our own actions. There is no entitlement issues here at least not with me. But being socially inept does not give the general population the right to bully, degrade or ridicule them. And I believe that anger from the socially inept person is valid especially if this person did not do a damn thing to his or her tormentors. I did not say violence. Im saying simple negative feelings. It is part of being human.

    • Bullying and the like are already illegal — you can charge a person with harassment or assault if they’re committing emotional or physical violence against you. You don’t need new rules or special rules — the laws already exist.

      And again, this isn’t even the issue I’m talking about in this blog post. I’m talking specifically about “Nice Guys” and “friendzoning”. You brought up BPD and other mental disorders all on your own, and tried (unsuccessfully) to equate the two situations.

  10. this happens with guys too. when i was younger, i guess i was a somewhat attractive guy and sometimes i decided to tell girls who were interested in me that i wanted to just be friends, and i really meant it. i was always perfectly comfortable hanging out with anyone who shared common interests, either guys or girls. without exception, each girl that i sexually rejected stopped talking to me, either right away, or after a couple more hang outs.

    we live in a society that promotes feelings of shame for sexual rejection. people are mocked if they “strike out” too often. if we changed how we dealt with sexual rejection and how we thought of others who have been rejected, we might see less rage.

    the friend zone is not real friendship, as you have written in your post, but i think in many cases the woman knows just as well as the guy that when she says she wants to be friends, she means that she is not interested in even friendship. perhaps not in the examples that you wrote about, where the person has put in time and effort to creating the friendship, but in other cases where the people are still in the early stages of getting to know each other.

    my experiences in life have caused me to wonder if single, hetero men and women still in the reproductive stage of life can actaully be friends without some sort of feelings evolving in at least one party. i’m sure it’s possible, but i’ve never seen it in my life or in the lives of any other people that i know. i have seen it when one party is gay and if one or both parties are not single, but never between single heteros. kinda sad how programmed we all are.

    • Oh, it’s definitely not an issue limited to women! More prevalent, perhaps, but that’s just because we live in a society where males are supposed to be the “askers”.

      As to whether (single, hetero) women and men can be friends without sexual tension/feelings being involved, I have to call on my own experience as a bisexual person to give some perspective to this. If your hypothesis were true, I’d never be able to make friends with anyone, male or female (or anything in-between, for that matter), without some sort of “feelings” developing. And that, of course, is blatantly untrue — I have plenty of friendships that are purely platonic.

      But even if such feelings do develop, I think it’s up to people to be responsible and grown-up about it. It’s important to recognize when such feelings are inappropriate, and to be able to separate the *person* from the *feelings*, lest we end up objectifying them.

      It sucks to be told “flattered, but no thanks”, when you’ve put yourself on the line & admitted an attraction to someone. But a mature person can accept that rejection & continue the friendship without bitterness, and never bring up the matter of attraction again. So the real issue isn’t whether feelings develop or not — it’s in how people deal with it.

  11. Notfake Name Says:

    You just don’t understand how much it hurts to be “friendzoned”. and continuation of friendship is a constant reminder that I’ve failed and this type of rejection is a killer of “self esteem” more than a simple no.

    I just like how you assume it’s always about sex though…

    DO ME A FAVOR. Get over yourself and actually look at it from a different perspective.

    • Well that’s just stupid. I don’t even know how to put that lightly — it’s flat-out stupidity.

      Of course I understand how much it hurts to be rejected. Do you actually think that just because I’m female, I’ve never been turned down? Never been dumped? Never had my heart ripped out of my chest and torn into a million (figurative) little pieces?

      I’m not so emotionally immature that I can’t take that rejection with grace, and suck it up, and stay friends.

      • Insidious Sid Says:

        THe problem is that it’s his fear of being rejected that causes him to use the nice approach, and it’s the nice approach that causes her to “reject him softly” by using hints like “let’s just be friends”.

        If he says “I like you. Let’s do an official date. Friday. Pick you up at 8:00” and she says “Oh no, not a date – dude I thought we were just friends – so no, we shouldn’t date.”

        If he was just using friendship as an “in” he should walk away and forgo writing hateful crap about women and the friendzone on the net.

        If he was REALLY her friend (and a guy with balls) and he honestly just fell for her he could say:

        “Rats, I fell for your s1lly ass! Can you blame me? Hey I would not want to mess up our friendship… are we cool?”

        The most courageous person of all? A woman who says “Dude, I’ve noticed you’ve been acting differently around me lately. If you’re thinking “you and me” I’m thinking “just friends”…”

        If he LIES to her and says “cool” but intends to keep up the romantic interest, he’s being a real douche. If he never intended to be her friend, he should just go away. If he truly values her friendship, he will truly avoid messing it up.

        The truth, as they say, will set you free.

        • Marshal lee Says:

          Thats assuming she is going to be interested. Not every girl is going to be interested and a mature person moves on. An egotist does mental gymnastics to make themselves seem wonderful since they are too childish to deal with the fact the world does not revolve around them.

    • You have a point there, it is definitely not always about sex. But there’s a whole lot more to this issue that envolves rather complex psychology which a looooot of people simply miss. What EVERYONE here is missing is that you do not always have to approach somebody to get rejected !!! Sounds strange but if you look into narcissism and how narcissist males & females approach their victimes which they are planning to use, it is often clear to see that they invite themselves into the life of their ‘prey’.. Most commonly they will try to avoide consent of their prey by slipping into their life through a common friend, or they play victim of an abusive friendship/relationship, so that the victim would forget about guarding him/herself… This is a whole different type of friendzone. Sometimes these narcissists do want a relationship with their victim and will crush their victim with their ‘charming personallities’… The friendzone is a high-tech psychological abuse which doens’t endulge amatures to go about defining what exactly it is, for if we do, we will only further damage a lot people’s selfesteem. You need someone’s approval to become friends, if someone tries to bypass your consent in any way, for anything, love, friendship, sex, help, whatever : you need to be vigilant… it will not always be a monster trying to use you, the person in question might simply not have learned in life, that you need to ask something to get it. So in conclusion, sometimes you have to look back on a friendship, especially if you are friendzoned.. and look how this friendship started in the first place. Another thing is that when a man approaches a woman because he likes her and wants a relation, well … it is his goddamn fucking right when he gets no for an awnser and having tried his tactics, not to have to accept the ‘friendzone’ as consolation. He has a right to be loved and if a woman is not intrested, others will be. Just because a woman doens’t feel the same way, it doesn’t give her the right to ask this guy to forget about his feelings and ‘serve’ as a friend. This is abuse.

      • The mistake you’re making here is that you’re blaming someone else for your own inability to set healthy boundaries.

        A narcissist cannot victimize you if you are a person who’s capable of saying “no”. They seek out those who are too eager to please, and use abusive tactics to make it DIFFICULT to say “no”, but if you’re firm in your boundary-setting a narcissist will move on to easier prey. Real friends do not expect you to “serve” them, and emotionally mature people are capable of recognizing when a request is unreasonable and saying “no” to it. A real friend will respect your boundary.

        • Uhm, now you are blaming me, and i’m the one who got used ?? I’m starting to think you are an internet troll poking into peoples wounds welknowing you are going against all rationals… Especially when i look at your icon, it resembles a remarkably narcissistic person ..haha. What is this, an attempt to get tons of viewers on you blogg ?? First off, real women-friends understand that you cannot ask a guy for the kind of friendship that boils down to a relation without the sex, and without the other being interrested in your feelings, personallity, likes & dislikes, other than the simple fact of what type of illusion they must feed you of them knowing you as a friend, to the extend that they can make use of that ‘friendship’. It’s the same thing when guys friendzone a woman, except they want sex, not attention. And i wasn’t eager to please, i was being a nice guy which contrary to your weird believes, is a state of being, not an approach, or except maybe by idiot playboys who only get friendzoned. Infact, sometimes i had to kick ‘m so i could go on with my own things. I later on learned that sometimes women use the threat of the friendzone to poke a guy into reacting. But i’m kind of authistic, and i don’t receive all that signaling b.s … i really hate the very thought of any kind of gaming or mindfucking… . I do pick up signals but i do not understand them, only after thinking about them for like 7 weeks… call it

          • It’s not “nice”, at all, to lie to your so-called friends. If you were doing “favours” and spending time and attention with a hidden price tag attached, you were lying about your motivations. If you were doing things that you didn’t want to do without expressing that this was something that made you unhappy, you were lying about your feelings. And YES, that IS your own damn fault, because you cannot expect another person to be psychic and to understand what’s in your head unless you TELL them. I’m sure your therapist can help you with learning to set boundaries and thus build healthier interpersonal relationships. It’s a necessary skill for getting along in society — at work, school, or with family and friends. It’s sad that no one has taught you this before now, but it’s a fixable problem if you just take the initiative to do it.

            • Remember that i was the one being approached by those girls and they never said they were planning to become close friends and when i started to notice that they frequented my place a little too much than what is supposed to be friendship, rather usary… i asked them if there was something i needed to know. Usually by then i got replies like : Oh no, you’re just a good friend to me, that’s all… So, and this is what is important for you to understand : They DECIDE for themselves and for me that i’m a good friend, who they can frequently visite, and they DECIDE this without even bothering to ask me how i feel about this, and since they are the ones approaching me, it should be them being clear about what da heck it is they are approaching me for in the first place isn’t it , since you are so strickt about being forward about motivation ??!!! This might serve as an example how manipulative persons totally lack the empathy of even understanding that they are dealing with another person with feelings, and likes & dislikes and never bother to somehow look for confirmation of their supposed ‘friendship’… And when i did feel attracted to one of them, then by my own choice i told them about it, and that it wouldn’t be wise to start a friendship .. That is where their manipulative sides really went fuckin’ ballistic. You probably will argue now that continuing the friendship was motivated by my urge for sex, but then you would completely be looking beside the point that i was severely manipulated and was sent on an unimaginable guilttrip about what an unbelievable ashole i would turn out to be to reject friendship for that reason, or i was a perverted person wanting to have sex whith a friend bla bla… this is really sickening shit, to be calling a person such horrible names who had never approached you or even said one wrong word to you. If you cannot understand what i’m writing here, or will again try to test your own cereberal incapacities by arguing me on these items of which i’ve heard professional opinions and read professional studies about, then by god;… you are right about everything, because you are Ubersmart, you are a relational Einstein.. that’s clear to see.

              • Look, you’ve got this narrative in your head wherein MULTIPLE women have set out to deliberately use you and steal your time and make your penis hurt. And it’s a narrative that is so unimaginably unrealistic that I cannot logically conceive of it even happening ONCE, much less with MANY women. This is an explanation that you have come up with that defies all manner of logic and common sense in order to contort reality into some ridiculous, unbelievably twisted situation wherein you’re the poor abused victim with no blame whatsoever attached to you. The only possible conclusion that anyone reading your story can come to is that it’s a complete fabrication. A fantasy. What you are describing is not reality as it functions today or has ever functioned in the past.

                You’ll be a much happier person if you can just accept that your time is simply not that valuable. You’re just one more awkward guy in a world full of millions of them, with nothing particularly special about you. Spending time with you is not some privilege that women would fight over or manipulate and plot and scheme to achieve. You’re not that special. If a person is spending time with you, making an effort to frequently visit you, inviting you to hang out, and otherwise making time for you in their day, they’re doing it because they enjoy spending time with you. There’s no secret conspiracy behind it. And they don’t owe you an up-front “we are just friends and will only ever be just friends” so that you’ll never get the wrong idea or develop feelings — their actions are, at face value, those of a friend. If you develop feelings, mention them immediately. Don’t hold that shit in. And trust that they’ll mention it if THEY develop feelings; if they never mention it, don’t assume they’re just hiding it. If you feel like they’re hanging around too often, don’t attribute some ulterior motive to it: just decide whether you’re okay with how much they’re around, and if you are, then enjoy the time together, and if you’re not, then say “hey I’d like to hang out less often” or “I’m actually not available on (whatever day she wanted to hang out)”. Just because someone says “I’d like to come over” doesn’t mean you have to say yes. And spending time together doesn’t mean they want to be in a relationship with you, and doesn’t mean you’re owed a relationship, and doesn’t mean it’s okay for you to assume that they WANT a relationship.

                Set boundaries. Decide what you’re okay with, and what you’re not okay with. Don’t expect her to psychically know what you’re thinking or feeling. Don’t act like time spent together means that she owes you something. And don’t pretend that you’re being “manipulated” into hanging out.

  12. Insidious Sid Says:

    I think this all boils down to people being honest. The guy who is hiding his true intentions of wanting a romantic and/or intimate and/or sexual relationship by just using the “nice” approach is ultimately being dishonest. I also think that a woman who is accepting dates, affection, gifts and other things that are *clearly* the efforts of a man who is trying to DATE her for whom she has ZERO interest romantically is ALSO being dishonest.

    If there is never, and I mean ever, going to be a chance for a guy to have a romantic relationship with a woman and she knowingly let’s him pursue her and plays the “thought we were friends” card later on, I think that’s a bit underhanded. Just like it’s creepy and really gross to think of women as a prize, sex as a commodity and “nice” as a currency to “get some”. You could expect a teenage boy to have such a jeuvenile understanding of relationships, but a grown man? Maybe he’s dateless for good reason…

    I think being direct is the best approach.

    M:”Let’s go on a date. Friday night. I know a quaint little place with great food.”
    F:”Oh, a date date. I thought we were just friends, and I don’t want to date you guy, sorry. If we can stay friends, I am okay with that if you are… but “you and me” aint happening.”

    He can say “I respect that and I value our friendship too.” or “Okay” and hope he can ‘change her mind’ or he can run home and go on the
    internet and type hateful stuff about women and the friendzone.

    If he was just USING fake friendship as a means to avoid asking her out directly and has no interest in REALLY being her friend, then he’s not really such a “nice guy” after all… is he?

  13. Hello Karen,
    Good blog, and there isn’t anything in the blog that I disagree with.
    However, I would like to point out that you are also whining about people going missing after “friendzoning”. Well think of it from this point of view:
    People only have a limited time and effort to pursue relations with other people. If a person thought that they could enter a relationship with you and later find out that it is unlikely to happen, then they will prioritise their time and effort on somebody who can (or may) give them a relationship. No objectification required.

    I know what you mean though that it can be heartbreaking when someone you just “friendzoned” no longer makes contact with you, even after you contact them, but think of it from their point of view!

    • I have to disagree with this purely from a logistical standpoint. Having more friends exposes you to more people, because you’ll be invited to more social events. You have a wider “circle”, and it intersects with a greater number of people. Having more friends (especially friends of the gender you’re interested in dating, who have personalities/interests that you find attractive) means that you’ll be exposed, through those friends, to other people who are similar to that friend. You’ll have to expend less energy creating “new” connections, and you might even get lucky and have someone “hook you up” with a mutual acquaintance that you find attractive.

      • Ok, I think we are having two separate arguments.

        Your main argument is that the guy is better off if he chooses to stay friends with the woman he desires rather than break ties completely. I don’t necessarily disagree with this, but it is not the argument I am making. Equally one can make the argument that a woman is better off dating the guy who she just wants to be friends with. But I won’t as I know you will go absolutely berserk.

        The argument goes like this:
        Suppose a man put time and effort to be with a woman and to try be with her. If she wants to be just friends, then it is fair enough, he just has to suck it up, and accept it: after all she doesn’t owe him anything. We agree on this I am sure.
        Equally if a woman puts time and in a friendship, and the guy no longer wants to be friends (for whatever reason) then equally the woman has to suck it up! After all the guy doesn’t owe her anything.

        I have a personal story relating to this. I made a group of friends (male + female), which I had fun with, as friends. However, I found out

        • (via 3rd party) that she was romantically interested in me. She later found out (also via a 3rd party) that I wasn’t interested in her. After she found out, she pulled out of any mutual activities, did not return my calls and emails, and literally disappeared. This was a girl that I enjoyed her company and found really fun to be with, so I was a little bit heartbroken. But can I begrudge her? Be fair now, Karen.

          • I was quite clear that this is not a gendered thing — that women can do it to men just as much as men can do it to women. Please don’t put gender essentialist bullshit in my mouth.

            And we’re really not having two separate arguments; you’re just changing the topic every time I offer a logical counter-argument to one of your points.

            Why do you assume I’d go “berserk”? That’s a rude assumption to make, when I haven’t shown any signs of being bad-tempered towards your earlier replies. That said, it’s absolutely ridiculous to equate the two stances as you have done: there’s no reason at all that a person should date someone they’re unattracted to. None. Ever.

            My point is that a person you’d be interested in dating is likely a person you’d also find engaging as a friend. The traits that attract us to people are not solely sexual in nature. Eliminating the possibility of a sexual relationship does not (and should not) eliminate the possibility of ANY relationship.

            Yes, sometimes we just have to “suck it up” when friends decide they don’t want to hang out with us any more, because friendship is never “owed”. But the point is that it’s a jerk move to stop hanging out with a person solely because they won’t let you touch their wobbly bits. It’s rude, selfish, and unkind.

          • Hello Karen,

            You say:
            “Whatever the reason, deciding that friendship, without sex or other “benefits”, just isn’t quite “good enough” for you? It’s an asshole move.”
            What I say:
            Well, people that decide to give up friendship completely because they can’t get more aren’t necessary assholes.
            Possible mitigating factors:
            – The person who had their love unrequited may prioritise spending time with potential relationship candidates rather than just friends candidates;
            – The person who had their love unrequited may have strong romantic feelings, which they can’t switch off easily. In that case an “out of sight out of my mind” approach may be the right way forward.
            Those wishes have to be respected in my view, regardless how much time and effort the person who wants to be friends has put into the friendship.
            That is the end of my argument.

            Then you say “but, but, but the person who is suffering unrequited love should still stay friends with that person.”
            For record, I do not disagree with your argument. I find it compelling, even convincing. But from a logical point of view: as I have already established that if a person who doesn’t want to be “just” friends should have their wishes respected, then this argument becomes pointless. It may be an interesting thought experiment to do, but it has no practical consequences.

            OK, berserk is a wrong choice of word, but reading your blog, is it not fair to say that you would be at the very least mildly annoyed if I suggested that a girl should try and consider a relationship with a guy she friendzoned even if she feels no attraction? However, I know ultimately it is a pointless task, because people (especially women) won’t go into a relationship with a guy who she isn’t interested in.

            Ultimately I am on your side here. “Friendzoning” is a symptom from the hideous mentality that the only use a woman is to a man is sex, which is fairly prevalent in society unfortunately. Yes, this mentality needs to be challenged, but kicking people who suffer unrequited love while their down isn’t the way to do it.

            PS what is gender essentailist?

            • The first of your “mitigating factors” I’ve already addressed as being a foolish strategy which is more likely to hurt your chances of finding a relationship than help them.

              The second is unfortunate, but ultimately an emotionally stable and mature person is capable of overcoming such awkwardness, if they desire to do so. Just because something has difficult elements doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing. And if, ultimately, a person finds that they are so very broken up about being rejected that they can’t handle seeing you ever again? The person they’re dumping as a friend deserves at least an *explanation*, not just a disappearance.

      • U are just admitting to using other people…. don’t know if you noticed that … i would start asking myself very serious questions. It is not because society is teaching us that it is normal to use others for social networking, that this is correct over the entire line. Infact if you use people, for whatever reasons, you need to seriously question that !!!!

  14. I would sum up the whole situation like this:

    What you are told as a young man by society and your peers:
    Having sex with women= winner;
    Ending up “just friends” with women= loser.

    What you learn as you grow up:
    “Friendzone” is somewhere you end up in if you are dating responsibly, but realise that you aren’t made for each other. Not a big deal.
    Having sex with someone who you do not love or see yourself having a viable relationship with, that feels like a massive consolation prize!

  15. jackvsworld Says:

    The idea that two people of the opposite sex could ever be just friends is absurd. Friendzone is a polite way of rejection, IT DOESNT MEAN YOU REALLY WANT TO BE FRIENDS. DUH

  16. Thank you so much for this article. Our society has propagated this paradigm into insanely dangerous levels, and the only way to fix it is to break it down into measures that (most? intelligent? insightful?) people can understand. A lot of the foundation comes from the narratives we’ve been fed (movies, books, TV, games, etc.) that show “guy gets girl,” and reinforces the belief that if you do some amazing something that you’ll be rewarded with a beautiful woman. I’m pretty sure that’s actually one of the seven basic plot lines (comedy as it were), and it’s been internalized in our culture. Anyway…enough of my rambling. I’ll be bookmarking this article since this is the second time I’ve found recourse to send the link to someone else.

  17. Toddbert Says:

    Okay, so, the way you see the term friendzone in your eyes is wrong. Good for you, But the way I use it and have seen it used is completely different from your idea. Let’s say Guy A has been friends with Girl B for years, they have always been friends and hung out all the time, Now, Guy A has had feelings for Girl B for a long time, and not just the “I want in her pants” feeling that you seem to think every guy has, But a general”I really care for her and could see us having a great relationship and future” feeling, Now, Guy A works up the courage to tell his long time friend Girl B about how he feels and Girl B either says”I’m sorry but we have been friends for so long I wouldn’t want to ruin our friendship”, “I see you as a brother more than anything, Dating you would be weird” or “I see you as just a friend” Guy A is going to be demolished, and by what you are saying Guy A should suck it up and stay her friend even though he is hurting and silently bleeding on the inside as he watches Girl B date other men then when said other men either hurt her or leave her Guy A is now the shoulder to cry on further deepening his friendzoned-ness and making him want to cry out that he feels he could be a better choice for her, yes women have the right to choose for themselves but Guy A feels that if he was given the chance that he could make her happy, but, he wont know that for sure nor will Girl B if he is never given said chance in the first place. Hence where the term friendzoned comes into play, he will tell his friends of the situation and instead of saying some long winded story it will be a simple “I was friendzoned” because he feels that he has no chance what so ever with ever engaging in a relationship with Girl B(and I don’t mean get in her pants and have hot wild sex with her since that is where your mind seems to go, men only think about sex apparently.) Basically what I am saying is, not all men use the term friendzone in the way as “I was her friend for a week and then she didnt give me sex I was friendzoned” that you seem to think they do and honestly the whole cutting off the friendship thing being wrong to you is ignorant, If I myself am being hurt by the fact that the woman I have deep feelings for has rejected me and decided to date another I would want some space for a little bit just to test the waters to see if I myself will be alright enough to sustain a friendship with her, no one wants the water to boil to the point of no return alright? If things end up getting better and I can go back to being friends and the whole she is with another person thing isnt tearing me apart awesome I have a good friend still, but if I can not keep myself from feeling my heart crack open every time i see the new guy hanging on her then I am sorry maybe we can talk another time, plain and simple.

    • Nope, “Guy A” was an asshole. He hid his sincere feelings from his friend (lying to her face) for a “long time” (possibly even years). He created this shitty situation and ruined the friendship because he was a coward and hid his feelings until they became unmanageable, and also because he was not emotionally mature enough to keep his own feelings in check and keep them from becoming so strong. He did a cruel thing to his so-called friend by putting her in an “ultimatum” situation where she had to either accept his romantic overtures (when she did not share the feelings), or lose a years-long, cherished friendship. Had this guy revealed his feelings in a more appropriate fashion, he wouldn’t have created this mess and hurt the both of him through his selfish stupidity.

      As for the “I’d be a better choice for you” bullshit, that’s already dealt with in the post. No, you wouldn’t be. She feels no romantic attraction to you, therefore you wouldn’t have a good relationship. Stop projecting your feelings, grow the hell up, and learn how to be a decent friend.

      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

      • Wait so “Guy A” Is an asshole because he was cowardly And Emotionally unstable ( or weak/irresponsible)? That’s probably the first time I’ve heard anyone say that about anybody in any situation ever. Usually we have empathy for people who are timid,shy and have difficulty controlling their emotion, or am I mistaken. I guess this situation could have been resolved if when he realized he might have had feelings for her, he could have stopped being her friend.

      • It sounds as if you only understand pain on a very deep level, when it overcomes you. You are being presented very wise words of Todbert and are simply writing reactionairy awnsers, you do not even bother to think what he is trying to say.. Do you think we as men are always attracted to you friends from day 1 ? If so you would really be in dire need of an ego-check !! And even if we were, have you any idea of how nerve wrecking it is to be honest about what you want as a man.. Hell, there are men the size of Rambo, who cannot even take those nerves !!!! And if we can finally utter them to someone we really really really care about, how do you think it feels to us to hear ourselves stutter and shiver being all drenched into the certainty that the next thing which will come up is an awnser somewhat like “oh, i like you but i like you more as a friend”… Let me give you some advice lady, we feel a whoooooooole lot better about ourselves diving out of a plane from 8000 ft without a parachute !!! This maybe comes close to describing what we have to go through before we can utter our love… and it mostly isn’t even thought over by some of our ‘women friends’ for more than like 1 second …… or maybe 3 seconds.. And then they make a sport out of it of reminding their best friend each 2 or 3 weeks, how they feel bad about not feeling anything so, this guy who is fucking going through absolute mesmorizing hell on the inside, now has to show compassion to his ‘friend’… I’m dramatizing ofcourse, just so you would understand.

        • I’ve already covered this. Repeatedly. If you hold on to your emotions and are dishonest about them, allowing them to have such obscene amounts of control over you, then it is YOU who are to blame, not the person who you are pining for. If you are honest from the time when emotions begin to bud, rather than letting those feelings fester inside of you, then you won’t be so invested and it’s nowhere near as terrifying as you’ve made it out to be.

          The worst she can say is no. And you’re vastly mistaken if you think that women don’t carefully consider before saying “no”. We’re at risk of physical harm or death as a result of refusing. We think VERY carefully about our own safety and whether this emotionally unstable man pouring his misplaced emotions upon us might kill us for saying no.

  18. Justin Zamora Says:

    Boom my mind is blown by so much stupidity in this blog your reasoning seems to contradict itself multiple times. Friend zoned is a term not an demeaning word that only ass holes use.

  19. his entire post is a fighting a straw man. The guy probably isn’t ending it because she won’t have sex with him, but because they have an emotional attachment to the person that won’t go away if they are around that person. You know what else, its really hard to watch a person you are into making out with a bunch of other dudes, while telling you, that you aren’t good enough to be with. You can paint it as being an asshole, but in reality its a guy making the choice not to deal with emotional pain of dealing with that. Nothing at all asshole about that. It seems to me this post never once even considers the feelings of the man, exactly how many divorces end in friendships, not that many, why because once you have feelings for someone its hard to go back to being friends. Its fighting human nature. The guy has the right to take himself out of a painful situation.

    • You’re arguing a point that I’m not even making — hilarious misuse of “strawman” while ironically doing exactly what you accuse me of, though, so +10 troll points.

      The argument is that using the word “friendzone” is inherently stating that you are not, in fact, friends.

      The further argument in my reply is that this “emotionally painful situation” you have described is *entirely of the guy’s own making*, and blaming the woman for it is an asshole move. He made his own bed; if he can’t bear to lie in it, that’s a sign that he is, in fact, an emotionally immature jerk.

      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

      • You ignorantly act like guys control who they gain feelings for in the more then just friends way, and that they don’t have the right to make the decision to take themselves out of the situation if they feels thats what they need to do. I don’t even get this ridiculous saying you were friend zoned is blaming the woman. Its funny women like to act like the more mature and more emotional sex, and ignore the facts that guys have feelings. Oh, and by the way, you did say exactly what I said you did, you might want to try reading your own post next time, umkay?

        • No, I understand perfectly that we cannot control who we fall for. However, a responsible person brings it up at the time when it first becomes a problem, and doesn’t let it fester for months or years creating the sort of clusterfuck situation you describe.

          This has nothing to do with women being “more mature” than men. I’ve stated repeatedly that this is not a gendered issue.
          Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

      • and I quote ” The problem is that “friendzone” is generally presented as a negative thing, as though being friends is some sort of “consolation prize”. It creates the impression that you were only in it for the possibility of sex, and if that possibility is removed, you’re really not interested in continuing the friendship.”

        Strange you do exactly what I say, instead of assuming the guy wanted a stronger more emotionally attached relaitonship, you straw man the guy and think all he wanted was sex. You do understand that a relationship and a friendship are on 2 different levels of emotional attachment right? You do understand that not getting to that other level can hurt right? You do realize that guys just like girls have the right to take themselves out of situations that hurt them emotionally right?

        • You have the right to take yourself out of any situation you want. But when you created that situation through your own asinine behaviour, no one should feel sorry for you.

          Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

          • False dilemma fallacy, you act like someone needs to be blamed and you blame the guy. Its really just an unfortunate situation where no one is to blame, it makes no sense to me that you think if the guy said something earlier how things would be different, the time does not change things, if the girl doesn’t have those types of feelings for him now, she probably didn’t then either, and the problem just arises earlier.

            • The situation would absolutely be different if he hadn’t let things fester. Saying “I’m starting to develop feelings for you” right when it begins limits the emotional investment you’ve put in to these (possibly inappropriate) feelings. It also gives her full knowledge of the situation. If she feels it might be mutual, but her feelings haven’t yet started to develop, you can explore the early stages together. If she doesn’t feel it, she can help you to get over the crush before it becomes overwhelming and obsessive.
              Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

              • damn, thats right Im a guy I forgot my feelings have an off switch, that if she simply talks me through it early on they simply won’t continue to develop in her presence. How could I have not known this?

                • Again, this is not gendered. Human beings can control their emotions. If you cannot, you should be in therapy.
                  Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

                  • So you just decide who you have feelings for? I guess the christians are right gay is a choice. Nope we don’t decide who we have feelings for we don’t decide how strong they get, we control our actions. If feelings are getting to strong for someone they shouldn’t be the way to stop this is not trying to control your feelings but control your actions and if that means taking yourself out of the situation so be it.

                    • I repeat: if you are incapable of controlling your emotions, please seek therapy.

                      When an emotionally mature person develops feelings for a friend, they go to said friend and say “so hey, I’ve been feeling these things about you, and I think it’s only fair that you should know. If you don’t feel the same way, I understand”. And then they talk about it, like mature grown-up humans. If the feelings are not mutual, the emotionally mature person evaluates what their own needs are, and asks their friend to help them put closure to the emotions — perhaps by reducing “triggers” like physical contact, by spending somewhat less time together until the emotions are under control, or simply via understanding and compassion. The emotionally mature person then makes a sincere effort to “get over” their crush, via healthy means such as shifting focus to other things and people, putting energy into hobbies, and cognitive behavioural or mindfulness techniques. Some time apart from the object of affection may be necessary, but outright cutting off the friendship is a drastic step that is generally unnecessary.
                      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

            • I always thought I wanted granite countertops. We are now renting a house with beautiful speckled brown/grey/black granite. However, I cannot tell if the counters are dirty or clean, or if there is sitting water that might damage any paperwork. It has firmed up my choice for white countertops in our next home!

        • And let’s be honest: demanding love and emotional attachment from a person who doesn’t feel that way about you is just as bad, if not worse than, demanding mere sex.

          Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

          • so which exactly is it, the guy demanding emotional attachment or the guy leaving the situation? Im now really confused.

            • It is both. In the situation you have described, the guy created an immensely problematic situation, took away the woman’s agency and control by not disclosing early, presented her with an ultimatum, and then refused to countenance the idea that her emotions were valid, declaring himseld the “better choice” even after being told no. He then abandoned a friendship that she felt was precious, because he was incapable of controlling the feelings that he had himself allowed to get to an unhealthy level.
              Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

              • Smart Enough to know better Says:

                This is so f*ing basic. The friendzone is basically someone telling you the end to a book you’re starting to enjoy reading, and frankly it SUCKS. Now do I really want to continue reading this book just to get to that awful, unfulfilling, meaningless, frankly worthless ending? No. Any one with anything better to do wouldn’t. Friendzone is just the cliffs notes, you choose whether you care enough from that point on. I don’t owe you any semblance of a friendship anyway. Entitlement issues anyone?

  20. Karen said: “When an emotionally mature person develops feelings for a friend, they go to said friend and say “so hey, I’ve been feeling these things about you, and I think it’s only fair that you should know. If you don’t feel the same way, I understand”. And then they talk about it, like mature grown-up humans. If the feelings are not mutual, the emotionally mature person evaluates what their own needs are, and asks their friend to help them put closure to the emotions — perhaps by reducing “triggers” like physical contact, by spending somewhat less time together until the emotions are under control, or simply via understanding and compassion. The emotionally mature person then makes a sincere effort to “get over” their crush, via healthy means such as shifting focus to other things and people, putting energy into hobbies, and cognitive behavioural or mindfulness techniques. Some time apart from the object of affection may be necessary, but outright cutting off the friendship is a drastic step that is generally unnecessary.”

    That is all well and good, but I don’t have many friends that are qualified phsychologists.

    • As I’ve already said: if you’re incapable of such things, get yourself into therapy.

      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

      • So, if I don’t want to be friends with a woman, I need therapy?
        This is on top of being an asshole of course.

        • If you are so emotionally incomplete that you are incapable of maintaining a valued friendship because your emotions have gotten in the way, then yes, you DO need to find new ways of managing your mind. Therapy is the simplest solution. Emotional maturity can be learned and practiced. Having help from a professional can make it easier.
          Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

          • So everyone that does not feel or react the way you wish needs therapy to reevaluate their “incorrect” feelings and be more “mature”?

            That’s a tall order.

            Tell me, when did unrequited love make someone an asshole?

            Sounds like Little Miss Can’tBeWrong gets upset when the boys she leads on call her on her own bullshit?

            Perhaps our dear Karen can’t stand to lose any sort of male attention. Typical pseudo intellectual entitled princess with father issues.

            • My father and I have a wonderful relationship, actually, so I’ve no idea where you get any of this “father issues” nonsense. Nor does “princess” fit in any fashion. And as for male attention? I’d happily forego it — and I am just as forthright in person as I am in texts. Hints, games, and “leading on” are the opposite of my style. If I like a person, I tell them so. If they do not have the same feelings, I move on. If a person likes me, I am brutally honest about their chances (or lack thereof, as the case may be), and outline exactly what they can expect from me. If any of this seems like “bullshit”, then I think you’re working from a different definition than I am.

              I have never held myself up as some sort of paragon of mental health. I have my issues, same as everyone else. But I deal with mine, and do my best to be a functional adult in this society. And yes, I fully expect others to do the same. That’s how societies function, after all.

              Unrequited love is an unfortunate reality. It’s how a person deals with that reality which shows their true character.

              Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

              • Your forthwith in communication seems to only go one way. As when some of the people replied back straightforwardly, you twisted it and responded back emotionally at how it made you feel. Rather than process the sentences as they written you argue based on feelings and emotion.

                Not very logical.

                The “feminist” politicization of the word friend zone is the most laughable causes that I come across on the Internet.

  21. Just a few questions, one with probably a pretty obvious answer. Is this implied to all men? And do you make gauges? (regarding your Etsy page)

    • All people — male, female, anything in-between. Conversations about the “Friendzone” usually refer to males as the “friendzoned” and females as the object of affection, but that’s a social bias not the reality of a world where gender is far more complex than a binary model could encompass.

      I have made gauged jewelry in the past, but my Etsy page is currently “on hold” while I focus on my real career, since I’m traveling on a contract right now. If you’re interested in a special order it’s possible, but there’s a few weeks wait time on production.
      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

  22. Right Karen,
    I agree with what Erik is saying, which is what I have tried to say all along.
    To recap:
    Karen’s argument: “Men have to accept that a woman doesn’t want a relationship with them, but men that don’t want to carry on a friendship with a woman is an asshole and even needs therapy.”
    My argument: “Yes I fully agree with the first statement, but also women have to accept that a man no longer wants to be friends with her (despite being good friends in the past) and those men aren’t assholes.” I then proceeded to give mitigating factors.
    Karen’s rebuttal to the mitigating factors went along the lines that “a man will be better off in the long run if he maintains a friendship with a woman that doesn’t love him than if he abandons her”.
    I ran out of arguments. That doesn’t mean I am conceding defeat. In fact for the record, I don’t know for sure whether Karen is right or wrong. However, I feel that that is a very big statement to make. Furthermore, there is only one way to prove (or disprove) is through experimentation, and this is what I propose:
    – Find 100 “friendzone” situations:
    – In 50 of them ask the friendzoned person to stay friends with the person that friendzoned him continuously for the period of one year;
    – In 50 of them ask the frindzoned person to make no contact with the person that friendzoned him for one year;
    – See who is better off (that obviously needs to be defined).
    How would you like to organise such an experiment, Karen?

    • Very cute, but to accept the terms of such an experiment one would have to accept the concept of “friendzone” in the first place — and considering that my overarching topic statement here is that the “friendzone” does NOT exist, such an experiment is patently ridiculous.

      In any case, one does not need human trials to determine the truth of a purely logic-based argument. Logically, a person’s social life can be broken down into a network of connections. If the goal is to make friends and have a healthy social life, then the number of and strength of those connections can be taken numerically to represent the abstract “value” of a person’s social life. If the goal is to find a romantic and/or sexual relationship, then we can use that value to calculate the likelihood of connecting on a romantic/sexual level with a person, in a quite direct sense: the more strong connections you have, the more likelihood that one of those connections will develop to the level of a “relationship”. Strong connections also spawn new connections, as friends introduce you to their social connections, creating complex networks of interconnectivity. The more interconnected a person is to you, the stronger the connection is (and again, the more likelihood of further development towards relationship status). Cutting connections, therefore, acts directly counter to the goal of creating connections — which is required for forming romantic/sexual attachment. This is fairly simplistic stuff.
      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

      • “Purely logic based arguments” without experimentation is nothing more than faith (or religion). For example: the Earth being at the centre of the Universe was a purely logic based argument using the best knowledge of the day, and this is why many great thinkers believed this to be the case for millennia. Equally, I have heard arguments from religious nuts about things that they do. Sure it made logical sense (from a purely principle point of view). It doesn’t make them right. As the old saying goes: “don’t believe everything you think”.

        Your arguments make logical sense, but I can think of a counter argument in this scenario:
        There was a girl that was interested in me, but I wanted to be her friend. The way she acted around me was like a friend. I only found out via a 3rd party that she had a crush on me. She found out (also via 3rd party) that I only saw her as a friend. Soon after she disappeared, and I was a bit devastated: I enjoyed her company, and had a good laugh with her.
        However I cannot say that she would be better off if she stuck around as friends. If her goal was “find a romantic partner” then staying friends with me is unlikely to achieve it. All my closest male friends are now married off (or in long term relationships), and outside that I don’t really hang around with other men. Therefore I cannot begrudge her choice.

        I don’t think you are necessarily wrong, I would just like to see hard (experimental) proof.

  23. I am all for the idea of not seeing women as objects. As a teenager, I used to do things like distance myself from girls who rejected me, and/or do favors for girls thinking that they owed me a date. I did think that I was a nice guy… I found out as an adult that I was not by any means a nice guy.

    I think the casual dating culture is to blame. If men are going to be jumping from relationship to relationship, they may need to resort to tricks to get women to trust them. A long term friendship takes a lot of time and investment. I once ruined a 3 year long friendship by confessing to a girl that liked someone else. She did not take it well. A guy has a lot less to lose if he befriends a girl for a few weeks before asking her out.

  24. I would like to thank you for this post, specifically for making me realize that my semi-conscious tendency to withdraw and abandon relationships with others (i.e, friendzoning oneself) when things in my head are becoming unbearable is a ‘wrong’ thing to do.
    Knowing this, you (inadvertently?) helped save a close friendship and pushed me to become direct with my feelings.

  25. Wow! I wasn’t going to comment but after seeing how much hatred for men you actually have. Why is it the mans fault? Was it my fault I got feelings for a female friend? Was it my fault I tried the friends route and it wasn’t working as I kept beating myself up because I thought I wasn’t good enough? If you think it is, then you have a serious chip on your shoulder. Not all men are bastards, same as not all women are perfect. There are two relationship circle to any human being, social and attraction, if anyone (male or female) puts you into the social circle, then you have been friendzoned, if you have been put into the attraction circle, then as highly intelligent as we humans think we are, the other person subconsciously sees you as a mate. We are nothing but animals that have gotten morality woven into natural paths that shouldn’t exist. Your ignorance for both sexes infuriates me to the point where I now regard you as a feminist who hates the male sex. Nothing more, nothing less

    • That’s odd, since I have been quite clear that this is not a gendered issue at all, and that it might well be a female-bodied person complaining about the “friendzone”. In fact, I have offered examples of times when I was rejected sexually by someone I was interested in, and then *actually stayed their friend and didn’t bitch about it because I am not a shitty person*.

      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

  26. i wouldn’t say that the guy who do this is an asshole. I would say he’s wrong, but it doesn’t turn him into an asshole. He could be just an immature guy. (i will use ‘guy’, but i am not trying to gender it. It’s just more confortable for me).

    What i question here is how you judge people who do it. You label them as “assholes”, “shitty persons” etc etc etc, and i disagree with this position. I would say i don’t believe in the existence of “assholes”. People in general are just too immature, and immaturity is not a choice, it’s a situation, and the person is IN this situation. His choices are limited to the choices of an immature person and, as it is, he can’t do mature things because it would deny the fact that he IS immature. I argue that, if he has no çhoice over it, or even over himself, he isn’t blameworthy at all and then, he is not an asshole. He just don’t have a lot of things that you have.

    It’s an unfortunate position to be, you know? some of this people do self-pitying continuously and live a life devoid of meaning. They feel the emptyness of their lives, although they don’t recognize it ot can’t describe it. I actually feel pity for them, and that’s why i would’t label them with words so agressive and obfuscating of reality by arguing that he could have stayed as friend, when he couldn’t. He doesn’t have the maturity to distinguish between rejection and failure as a human being (it’s very hard to distinguish it. Personal experience). For them, you actually rejected them entirely and not just romantically and, if you say otherwise, you are just pitying him and trying to be good to not feel bad for rejecting him.

    There are people that immature that don’t appear to be, because he talks well or that he is very smart on some situations, but you can be mature on some things and be totally immature on others. You can be very good prefessionally and be a total failure in other spheres of life. People like these suffers a lot for reasons they remotely understand (at least for me. Again, personal experience)

    I think the difference is that you have luck to have a well structured family, a good and healthy social circle and access to culture and information (not just these), and they don’t.

    • It’s cute how you assume I have had all of these advantages. My childhood was abusive, not “well structured”, and my social growth as a child was severely handicapped by a variety of factors (undiagnosed and then misdiagnosed/mis-treated mental health issues being only the tip of the iceberg).

      An adult human being is responsible for ALL of their actions, including mental actions (and inactions). What you describe as “immaturity” is a failure to learn and integrate basic social cues. And yes, learning to do so can be difficult — but it is a basic part of learning how to be a functional adult. If a person is a legal adult and has not yet learned to be functional, their dysfunction is no one’s responsibility but their own.

      Being an asshole is not necessarily a deliberate choice. Often, it is simply the result of ignorance. But if the behaviours are assholeish, then one has to resort to the maxim, “if it walks like, talks like, etc”.

      If you wish to pity those who have failed to learn how to function in society, that is your choice. But no one is entitled to being handled with kid gloves, and no one should have to put up with shitty behavours — no matter what the justification. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, and in my personal opinion it absolutely SHOULD be called out as such.
      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

      • But you do have some of these advantages. Do you think you reached this point (and other people don’t) because you are better at something inherent to you? if yes, what would it be? genetics? at least you had some good friends or anything. Someplace where you could go and keep away from the “wrong” culture.

        Calling people assholes put them in the old-black-and-white-good-versus-evil-fight instead of finding the real reason behind things, that’s why I think immaturity is a better word than asshole. You have the right to not tolerate bad behaviors, it’s your mental health in the game. Bad behavior is bad, and is wrong, but i think intentions are more important than actions when judging someone. I am not saying you should tolerate these behaviors, but understand where they came from. Doing this adds for your personal growth and better understanding of yourself and others. In my point of view, only behaviors can be bad, people are just ignorant (some too ignorant to even talk with or to be around with)

        I agree that the responsability of your life is entirely yours. Adding to that, i have a belief that you should take responsability for all things of your life and stop transfering guilt to society, things, gods, people, the girl that rejected you, your parents and relatives, your government etc etc etc
        but it’s not exactly how things really really are. Some things can indeed define your ways. Would you agree that: “If you are poor, it’s entirely your fault”?

        • Everyone has some advantages and some disadvantages in their lives. And most advantages have a downside, while most disadvantages have an upside — that’s kinda how the world works. Yes, there are certain situations that are harder to rise above than others, but they still don’t give you the right to behave like an asshole and not face consequences for it. Act like a shitty person, and you will get treated like a shitty person.
          Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

  27. Reblogged this on Random Blogging and commented:
    Love it!

  28. The friendzone is a unhealthy place and actually very toxic once the female in question begins to take advantage of the guy by keeping him on her “friendroll” and making him do every conceivable job (chauffeur, mover, career advisor, therapist, emtional tamponing, gift giver etc etc) for her that her boyfriend should be doing, discussing intimate details of her life with the guy, monopoloising his time, subtly controlling who he sees or dates and exerting control and “superficial interest” when the guy tries to bail. All so because she knows the guy has the hots for her. What is interesting is women like this often have multiple “friends” (read heram) of men who are doing stuff for her. I know of females in this league who even have girlfriends who they don’t like but keep them around because they have utility value. Typically, these women also have a poor record of being able to build genuine relationships all their lives not just with men but also women and members of their own family. For them, People are utilities, especially the ones who show affection. I agree that men should not enter the friendzone if they have dubious intentions, but as society tells us, you can try to earn love and affection over time. Some guys try that angle. I doubt if sex is the only thing they are chasing. If they were they would bail very fast.

    • Manipulatively attempting to “earn” love, affection, a relationship, etc. is still disgusting and manipulative. If you are only hanging around in the hopes that one day she’ll love you back, rather than being a mature adult and moving on, you are not offering genuine friendship and you are being a douchebag.

      Nor is someone who leads another person on being honest, of course.

      Both of these situations are manipulative, disgusting, and not worthy of the word “friend”.
      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

  29. So a male friend you rejected must continue the friendship or he’s an asshole. It’s almost like you think he owes you. This sounds familar. Furthermore you presume to dictate what emotions he’s allowed to have. If he has any emotions other than what you aprove of then he is childish or in need of therapy. You claim he’s better of if. he any

    • As I’ve pointed out repeatedly, this is not a gendered issue.

      A person, male or female, who ditches and shuns a friend because that friend is uninterested in smooshing their face or their genitals against yours, is a shitty friend.

      Mature adults know how to accept rejection with grace and not be assholes about it.

  30. You guys really have no idea what friendzone really means. It’s very simple and not at all personally complex like she described it. I find her idea of friendzone a femanist view, because all you are doing is hating on what men normally do. The majority of men do not wish to indulge in friendships. They are seeking a lifetime purpose -to find love. When a guy asks to be friends, majority of the time, he only got into the friendship in hopes of winning her heart. When a girl rejects his advances, it is totally justified to leave her and their fake friendship he did not even want. The sad thing is, females think just because a guy invests time into a girl, that he needs to stay after finding out the truth? No! It is not a bad thing at all. Men don’t waste time like that(most don’t). I for one DO NOT. I am old fashioned -meaning only one person in my life. A few friends is fine(emphasize few), but this new generation of kids friending people and having over 200 FAKE friends on medias that they do not even talk to much, and even if they did, they do not have the time to hang out with 200 friends. This is little kid behavior. Very self centered, if not that then, model-like praise for their beauty seeking attention to up their self worth to skyscraper heights that do not need to be achieved. It results in overly stuck up egotistical kids, sometimes not. Now I said most men do not aim to find a lifetime friend who forever friendzones him(meaning has no interest to EVER see him in a romantic way EVER). His hopes are shot and damaged. He gives uo, because it is only right to do. He throws away a friendship, because if he stayed it would only hurt him, not her. It’ll remind him everyday that he can’t have her. Please stop destroying the word friendzone. It has no bad meaning at all. It’s just a normal kind situationthat always happens. Neither she or him are evil. If there is no attraction, then in MOST cases, it cannot advance. NOW im not saying that personality can’t win sololy -as it has and can happen only because of the infinite possibilities of preference people have. Not one person is the same. Some want both looks and personality, some just looks, and some just personality. Please don’t get worked up. If you lose a friend, that is because he/she cannot bear continue knowing a person who broke his/her heart..(some react like that/some don’t -but most do. It depends on whether they can accept non sexual benefits(aka in the right intentions -love) from a friend they wanted to marry. I can only imagine how much stress and willpower it would take to force oneself to not leave a rejection. Either way, get over it. Tell yourself, why are you so butthurt in losing a friend that you did not romantically love? Is it that much worse of a feeling than losing romantic love? That would be up for debate, personally I think losing romantic love is far worse than losing a best friend who is forever friendzoned or even a friend..Why? Simply because life’s goal(humanity) is to romantically love one person and create a family(or no family, if they dont want kids). Life’s true and more ultimate purpose isn’t to find friends or best friends. Now we can argue that too. Preference yes, but to most men, I am sure I can speak for them 🙂 The mjaority of Men and majority of women’s views have been different since the beginning. We might aswell be a totally different species for all I care based on a gender’s majority voted opinion. So please, I laughed my ass off.. friendzone isn’t an asshole move at all. It is a majority reaction to move on from ones initial intention and to keep up with that intention until they find love.. not a friend.. a real goal.. not wasting youth. Everybody is at a different age and a different and those different time limits. Ok bye was funning making all you girls finally realise. And trust me my logic is common sense.

    • I hardly even know where to begin telling you how wrong and offensive your comment is. In the main: if you start hanging around a person *solely out of a desire to fuck them or have a romantic relationship with them*, you are not their friend. That’s not how friendship works, and if you term that sort of interaction as “friendship” you are insulting everyone involved. Secondly, men and women are not some sort of “different species”. We experience all the same emotions, all the same drives, all the same impulses. We are all HUMAN. And we are capable of interacting as human beings. You insult all men when you insinuate that males are somehow incapable of being rational adults with balanced emotional capacities. Thirdly, not everyone is heterosexual, not everyone is monogamous, and gender is not a binary — when you assume heteronormativity and gendernormativity you are being a bigot. Fourth, if a person is incapable of gracefully accepting rejection, they are emotionally stunted and need professional help.

      Sent from my “contract free” BlackBerry® smartphone on the WIND network.

  31. “He throws away a friendship, because if he stayed it would only hurt him, not her.”


    I guess we aren’t suppose to have feelings…..

    Some of us don’t have the balls to tell the girl how we feel right off the line because guys like us only know rejection……. And so we try to play it safe and move SLOW so as not to fuck everything up. But then ( in my experience from day ONE) you (women) go to a bar, pick up some guy, fuck him that night, and then wonder why your relationship only lasts a couple weeks………

    if you ask me, women (or everyone really) could learn alot from guys like us.
    TO ME it seems MUCH more logical to be friends FIRST, and THEN date. When people date, they put on a “dating mask”. And after the relationship officially starts they find out that neither of them is who they said or presented themselves to be. And so you have friends like mine, who have had COUNTLESS failed relationships. Probably because they were trying to have an intimate relationship with a STRANGER……..

    Women are all tied up in this “love at first site” BS. YOU CAN”T HAVE A MEANINGFULL LASTING RELATIONSHIP WITH COMPLETE STRANGER!

    just like regular friendships, I don’t see a fellow guy and think, “he looks like he and I would be good friends, i’m gonna just assume that and befriend him”.


    You talk to this person, find out you have similar interests and go from there.

    A feet which is IMPOSSIBLE if two people are hiding who they truly are in order to make themselves “presentable”.

    We should ALL be dating someone who is/was a FRIEND FIRST.

    • The “love at first sight” BS (as you put it) is certainly not a women-only thing. Men are, in my personal experience, far more likely to believe in that crap.

      There’s a difference, though, between building a friendship first & then developing a sexual/romantic attraction once the friendship is already established (in which case you should reveal the budding feelings as soon as they appear), and being a stupid fucking shithead who has sexual/romantic feelings from the start but HIDES them & then gets all butthurt & “can’t bear to continue the friendship” after being rejected.

      If you’re a FUNCTIONAL ADULT PERSON, you can reveal a crush the moment it appears & deal appropriately with it. If you hide your feelings, you’re being a shitty friend.

  32. petedobos Says:

    “friendzone” when used to mean “boo-hoo she/he won’t have sex with me” is most def not a nice concept. I hadn’t thought about it at all, so thanks for bringing this to my attention. Having a bit of Asperger’s, I have a hard time seeing things from the perspective of others, and reading stuff like this is very helpful. Most of the time I simply go by the “do unto others…” rule, but that doesn’t always work well because my “norm” is shifted from most of my society’s “norms”.

    For example, until now I have always used friendzone to mean a friend that I have fallen in love with but who will only ever be my friend and nothing more. Sure, having sex is part of it, but for me FZ has always been synonymous with “unrequited love with someone who is your friend.”

    Just another perspective…

  33. Penisballs Says:

    Lmao, this is just another narcissistic chick saying the same narcissistic guilt-avoidant shit. Narcissists are destroyed by guilt, so they have to try and flip it on the victim. I feel horrible myself about rejecting girls that really liked me, but at least I never welcomed them to a “friendzone” where I used them and led them on to get much needed ego boosts after being torn down by a lover or get rides etc. You, little chicky are trying to deal with double factor guilt and are trying to blame other people. Rejecting someone that was sincere for me in favor of a “maybe” or more lustful attraction doesn’t make one a good person. It has diminished my goodness in many ways, but I’m still decent enough to not blame my rejectees. Fuck you, bitch.

  34. I have a friend. She is 12 (!) years my junior (I am 32, she is 20). We have been friends for five years, and roommates for the past year. In the past few months I have fallen for her. In truth our relationship is a little bit codependent. She relies on me too much, because I have been too happy to continue enabling her. This friend has been diagnosed with BPD.

    She does not return my feelings and expresses shock that I had feelings, or a sexual drive, at all. She is very flirty and touchy. I told her that it must stop because I need to get over her. She expresses anger that I am not ALREADY over her. Now I want her to move out, because being around her causes me profound sadness. She has started to become cruel and insulting. However, she says this is abandoning her. She says that she has nowhere to go and expresses doubts about her ability to manage her life without me.

    Furthermore, I don’t even know if I actually want a relationship with her, because I know that I would not be able to trust her. She IS too young for me. I did not want these feelings but I don’t know how to make them go away. There is something about her that causes these things to happen because it turns out there are at least a dozen guys who are all as nuts about her as I am.

    This may not actually be the so-called friendzone, because it appears like she actually sees me as a parental or big brother figure, but it sure feels like it. I do want her to be happy, but it is difficult to have to watch her make bad decision after bad decision, while I want to leave, but will feel guilty if I do.

    • I had a similar situation. I too tried to move away from her and she accepted it. I liked her a lot and I didn’t know if she at least liked me as a friend, but I felt so stupid losing friendship with someone I sincerely liked that I tried to be friends anyway. I would overcome this emotions and be able to handle this situation, I thought. It was a trial for me, but I knew that I was growing and needed to mature emotionally and that was my motivation, because i knew that i had no future like this. In the beginning, I couldn’t even have a decent conversation with her. I would say: “Good morning”, give a smile , she would do the same and that’s it for the day. It was strange with her for almost one year, but I tried in every way to overcome this. I read books of psychology, I went to forums, I discussed to topic friends etc. Sometimes i would be depressed thinking it was impossible. But after reading some good books and working this emotional part of mine, i really learned to handle myself. But all this happened because i had NO experience with “really liking someone”, and i am not talking about the sex part, but about really caring about a person. It was the weirdest friendship ever, for almost two years. After the first year we already talked normal, but i never managed to get closer to her, to be like the other friends she had. It was always serious with me around, and it is really exhaustive sometimes. But it is fun anyway. It’s a good friendship and i don’t regret what i did, because i grew up a lot in that time, i became a totally different person, even my family noticed that i was more cheerful and happy than before. To grow up is something that you do for yourself, for your own well-being. It is a necessity. doing the right thing forces you to grow up and growing up is a necessity. If you really like the person, you should strive for the friendship. Personal experience.

    • Yup, you are the dad, the brother and the ugly old aunt for her. You see the worst side of her, her pains, her anxieties and her insecurities. Dude just tell me when and I’ll help you pack her stuff and you ought to show her the door. She is a mess. Let her out NOW and move on to the ocean of beauties outside.

  35. Yes it is a myth and I strongly encourage guys who in such pseudo relationships to bail. Fact is that the chica only likes you but has no lust for you. For her you are a brother outside closed doors who she is using for security, like a bodygaurd or a chauffeur. Within closed doors you are her old ugly aunt who she can confide in about anything including her sex life, her periods, her STDs, her anxieties etc. So males dont stay here, move the fuck out. There are MANY other awesome chicks out there who will love you for the man you are. They will go out with you, make out with you and be a fair and equal partner. So leave this pathetic friend zone! It’s no ones fault. The lady loves attention and she love your company but that’s where it stops. You ain’t getting in her pants.

  36. Realest shit I’ve seen all year. I always considered the “friendzone” a mere idiotic meme that the media set up to dehumanize male and female sides of the spectrum.
    I don’t have to be nice to curry favor anymore than you do, you know what I mean?
    if you are gonna be nice to someone, it’s because of mutual respect as equal human beings.
    Way I see it, if a woman likes me, both for the bad and the good, then she’s the one i’m gonna be happy with.
    The ones who follow this silly myth just go chasing and chasing. And fall into every trap in and out of the book.

  37. What you say is right, but not accurate. You’re defining friendship as a list of values you expect to get and not considering the other party’s interest. It’s not about getting sex or getting into someone’s pants, but simply about not being on the same page. Once the other party expresses their interest in you as more than a friend, they are revealing a missing aspect of their life and hoping that you can be the one filling in the gap. If you can’t do so, assuming that humans are machines that can switch their feelings off whenever they want is exactly the flaw of your post. By moving on (or as you put it, not picking up your calls) they are giving themselves the chance to get over the feelings they have for you and be in pursuit of someone else who can close the gap for them. If you be patient enough, you’ll realise that they may even be back once they’ve found what they want with someone else.

    Now as a psychology professional, this relates to fundamental differences between male and female behaviour, female usually shows the least attraction to whom she has the most encounter and the most attraction to the least encounter – or the often heard “he’s attractive cause he’s mysterious” whereas the opposite holds for male, male’s attracted to the the one he has most encounter.

    This should justify why women tend to have friends (as you put it, the “nice guys”) to whom they are close with but not attracted to and usually form a romantic relationship with someone who they seem to be less connected to than the “nice guy”. On the otherhand, guys tend to want everything in one person, so they usually develop feelings for the one They share the most

  38. It is an insult that you – having a different gender – are good enough to be talked to but not good enough to have sex with.

    There is no friendship on one side and sexual relationship on the other. A sexual relationship is a friendship with less limits.

    And you don’t have to be overtly sexual either. I don’t buy into the assumption that a woman is too dumb to notice that you fancy her and you need to outright say it for that idiot to get it.

    They know it very well.

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