Women in Elevators, Stray Dogs, and the Privileged White Male Delusion

As I’m sure all of my regular readers are well aware, I am far from being a delicate flower of dainty, ineffectual womanhood.  I don’t expect men to open doors for me, carry heavy bags, or take the driver’s seat when we go out (unless it’s their car, in which case I’ll probably still ask if they want me to drive; or I’m drunk, in which case I’ll make sure they’re sober before crawling into the back seat and falling asleep for the ride).  I don’t want them to walk me home late at night, or defend my honor when I get hit on at the bar.  I am deeply hostile to anyone who insinuates that there are things men can do which I cannot (unless those things involve physically having a penis, in which case just let me get my strap-on and we’ll just see how much I can’t do).  When it comes to traditionally “masculine” pursuits, I’m often far ahead of my male friends:  I own my own power tools, am pretty good with carpentry, can manage basic plumbing and electrics with ease, drive a standard, can carry my own body weight, spent nine years training and competing in martial arts, and regularly handle animals (snakes, lizards, rats, etc) that send a lot of men running and squealing pathetically.

I’ve also been the victim of multiple sexual assaults and attempted sexual assaults, and am continually harassed and accosted by men who don’t seem to know what is socially appropriate and what is just plain threatening and creepy.  Just being capable of defending yourself doesn’t make you immune — being female and attractive (in that order; there are plenty of men who only look at the first criteria) means that it doesn’t matter how capable you are, you’re going to be a victim at some point in your life.

So when I read about Rebecca Watson‘s encounter in an elevator with a creepy dude who didn’t know where the line was, I thought, “yeah, that guy was totally out of line.”  I didn’t have to consider it:  I know what it’s like to be stuck in a small space with an unfamiliar man who clearly finds you attractive and might or might not want to do something awful because of it.  Nevermind that I’m a black belt in karate and 90% of men, even if bigger and stronger than me, wouldn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of successfully defeating me in an even fight — the fear is always there, because it’s impossible to know if this particular guy happens to also be a trained martial artist, or maybe he’s too drugged up to notice if I kick him in the balls, or maybe he’s got a gun tucked into his pocket, or maybe he’s got five friends waiting just around the corner to help him out.  It’s impossible to know, and the unknown is scary.

So I empathized with Rebecca’s situation, and figured that most other people would, too.  Elevator Guy was out of line, and everyone should understand that — right?

Well, apparently not.  The blogosphere has exploded with commentary on the incident, with many people (even women!) saying that Rebecca’s uneasiness about the situation was misplaced, that she had no reason to be afraid, and that she’s maligning the poor guy, who was just trying to be “friendly”.  (A side note to the men here:  it’s never “friendly” to approach a woman you don’t know at 4am and ask her out.  Especially in a small, confined space).  Richard Dawkins (yes, author of “The God Delusion”) has even said that she shouldn’t have been worried, because it’s easy to just push a button and get off the elevator at the next floor — threat averted, nothing to worry about.

Yes, really.

So I was getting all ready to write a long and rambling post, trying to explain to the unenlightened just what it is like to be in that sort of a situation.  Trying to think of some analogous situation that a male might find himself in, where he would feel threatened and unsure of what to do.  Trying to explain just *why*, in an enlightened society where we try to treat everyone as equals, regardless of gender, men should go out of their way to make women feel unthreatened by them.

And then I went on Scienceblogs and realized that Greg Laden had already written such a post, so I’m simply going to link to his example.

The most important point that needs to be made here, I think, is that for all that we want to believe that we live in a society of equals, we really don’t.  The white, heterosexual male is still the privileged “norm”, while anything else is subject to discrimination and abuse in varying shapes and forms.  And for every enlightened, completely non-threatening man out there, there are many who still subscribe to a belief that women are fundamentally different, lesser, and exist solely for male pleasure — even if they protest otherwise and, intellectually, can find no logical basis for such behaviours.  Media brainwashing and centuries of social conditioning aren’t overcome in a single generation, and it’s going to take a long time before equality truly exists (if it even can be achieved).

I’m not even saying that men who would sexually harass, assault, or rape a woman are in the majority.  In fact, I think the opposite — it’s only a small percentage of men who constitute enough of a problem to be an annoyance (people like Dawkins, perhaps, who might make sexist comments now and then, but aren’t truly bad people or prone to doing anything violent), and an even smaller percentage who could be considered a real threat (the sort who might actually grope, threaten, or attempt to rape a woman).  But considering that we might encounter dozens of different people on any given day, the laws of probability suggest that we’ll eventually encounter one of those truly dangerous elements.  And so we must always be on our guard, always prepared against the day when that guy in the elevator with us isn’t just going to make an awkward pass, he’s going to actually try to do something.  And by the same token, men must always be prepared to prove that they’re NOT a part of that tiny percentage of whom we should be afraid.

While I’m on the topic, guys:  here’s a handy list of a few things that women (especially the attractive ones) find incredibly annoying and/or threatening and creepy:

  • Staring.  If you want to look, be discreet about it.  Staring directly at a woman will make her feel threatened, as though you’re watching her and possibly planning to do something nasty.
  • Catcalling and whistling.  It’s demeaning, not complimentary.  It turns the woman into an object, valued only for her physical attractiveness.  Being constantly reminded that society views you as only a pair of boobs with legs attached is not a nice thing.  Catcalling is especially annoying when done from a moving vehicle, because there’s no chance for the victim to respond with a satisfying “fuck off, asshole”.
  • Approaching a woman just to tell her she looks pretty.  This includes telling her you like her hair, that she has the prettiest eyes, etc.  Attractive women get this ALL. THE. TIME.  Chances are you’re not the first — nor even the second or the third — guy to do this to her today.  And no, she doesn’t want to talk to you.  If she wanted to talk to you, she’d walk up and start the conversation.  The only exception to this rule is if you’re in a bar, nightclub, or other “singles’ spot” where women might conceivably be going to meet new people.  In that case, make eye contact and smile from a safe distance away.  If she responds positively, then move in with a compliment.
  • Standing too close.  Unless you’re in a situation where it’s totally unavoidable (really crowded bus, etc), don’t stand any closer to a woman than you would to an unfamiliar man at the urinal.  If you’d feel uncomfortable standing that close to a pantsless man while you’re both peeing, she probably feels uncomfortable standing that close to you when you’re fully clothed.  If you were pantsless she’d run screaming.
  • Walking too close.  Similarly to above: if you’re walking and find yourself falling into step with a nearby woman, either speed up to get ahead of her, or slow down and let her go on alone.  If you’re overtaking a slow-walking woman, leave plenty of space when you pass (crossing to the other side of the street is an option to consider if you’re in a situation that seems to have especial potential for creepiness, such as late at night on an otherwise quiet street).
  • Making a pass at a woman while she’s working.  Waitresses, saleswomen, baristas, female police officers, librarians, etc.  It doesn’t matter what her job is.  She’s at work, and is probably only smiling at you because she gets paid to be nice to the customers.  If you want to strike up a conversation with her, pick a neutral topic — the weather, or some piece of local news.  See how she responds to that, and let *her* guide the conversation to other topics, if she wants to.  She’s at a serious disadvantage in this social encounter, because being dismissive towards you might get her disciplined or fired for being “rude” to the customers.  Respect that and don’t be pushy.
  • Blocking the exit.  Even in a situation where it’s socially acceptable to approach a woman (a bar, for example), never corner her.  Leave her with at least one direction (better if you can leave more than one) in which she can simply walk away, without having to squeeze past you.  The same goes for situations where you’re not approaching and talking to her — if she’s standing in the bus shelter, don’t stand blocking the door, or if she’s sitting in the back of the train car, don’t stand blocking the aisle.
  • Following.  If you notice that you seem to be taking all the same turns as a woman, try to find an alternate route, or just wait a minute and let her get a little ways ahead of you.  If you got off the bus at the same stop, went left, and then turned down the exact same side street?  Stop and pretend to tie your shoelace or something so that she can put a “safe” distance between you.
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22 Responses to “Women in Elevators, Stray Dogs, and the Privileged White Male Delusion”

  1. Great post! I can’t wait for the day when I can go for a walk at night in the park without someone else, without my cell phone, and without fear.

    • One of the many reasons I can’t wait to move back out to the country. Back where I grew up, the biggest fear if you went out at night was animals — and they’re predictable, if legitimately scary. Humans are way more frightening, because you never know what they’re going to do.

  2. It took me living in Toronto for about a year to really have even a basic understanding of what my female friends meant when they said they didn’t want to walk home late at night. Naturally, people had always said that in OS (and as far as I’m concerned, were even more justified in that piss-hole than in TO), but no one had really explained it to me until one of the people I met in college had told me that she was scared when she saw me walking towards her one night. I wear a heavy, military trench coat in the winter, and while I may be built like a twig, apparently my silhouette is significantly more menacing than my actual appearance.*
    I was so confused by her feeling threatened by me that it evolved into an entire discussion that was similar to the post above (although not so thorough). I left her place feeling pretty much ashamed for not really having comprehended the situation before, and have since asked pretty much all of my female friends for their perspective and found identical sentiments almost all around.

    Unfortunately, I now spend all of my time while walking at night trying not to appear threatening. I’m uncomfortably conscious of the impact my very presence can have on women I may pass on the way. I like to whistle while I walk, especially if I’m stumbling home from the bar, and I often catch myself doing so while people are walking by, and then immediately feel inconsiderate and hoping that they know that I was just whistling a tune and not directing anything at them. To further add to the awkwardness of the situation, I’ll often stop whistling once I’ve realised this, which is usually right after I’ve passed by them! How ridiculously fucked up is this, that two people can walk by each other, one scared and the other scared of possibly scaring the other!^

    To top this off, I’ve never considered crossing the street out of consideration for the situation. Add another thing to my list of neuroses.

    *I realise that it isn’t my conceived bulk which alone is the problem, but it doesn’t help.

    ^No, I don’t think that my discomfort of being mistaken for a rapist is equal to the fear of being assaulted. I know this isn’t SB, but I thought I’d at least try to avoid getting labeled as a mansplainer.

    • You probably do understand the issue better than you think you do, since you lived in Owen Sound for many years and aren’t exactly very suited to the heteronormative and jock-centric stereotype required for social acceptance there (or to put it in Owen Sound terms, you “look like a fag”), and therefore you did go through a lot of the same things (the threat for you being getting the shit kicked out of you simply because you looked different, not getting raped simply because of having a vagina, but it’s still a pretty similar situation). Being unable to walk the 15 minutes to work without someone calling you a “faggot” or otherwise commenting negatively on your appearance isn’t all that different, in kind, from what is experienced by a woman who can’t walk down the street without getting catcalled at or hit on. Fortunately for you, moving to another city pretty much sorted that problem out. Unfortunately for women, there are men pretty much everywhere, and we can’t just hole ourselves up in the ladies’ room forever.

      • You could try hiding in the ladies’ room forever, and it would probably be a good time… If the media has taught me anything, it’s that all women, everywhere, want to sex up all other women, all the time.

  3. I saved your post, will finish it later, and think about it some more. And if you don’t mind, I will think about you, too. But I think it’s cool that you have donmen many of the things I have had to do to protect myself.

    http://pornalysis.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/inspiring-white-females-to-action-rationalization-of-late-term-post-partum-white-female-privilege-abjection-and-feminist-cowardice/

    Is that the mental form of being stared at? I don’t have an answer for that right now. But PZ Meyers, and Rebbeca and even Greg sometimes are what has made rape and dialogues about rape culture laughable.

    But right now I have this huge question forming in my mind about all white women and the MEN THAT THEY ATTRACT TO THEM.

    I mean, that is actually what men say to men who are victimized.

    I mean, as a guy who has had all the same things happen to me that you outlined in your first couple pp’s ( sexual,physical, emotions l violence, etc, and most of that by age ten, and all of that by women) I am constantly awed by two things:

    1) white female privilege, and it’s projection upon the world( Iraq, et al, which uphold WFP)

    2) white female delusions about white male privilege.

    I mean, what kind of guys do you meet that I don’t? Sure, I have been jumped, etc by that version of pig-faced suburban Germanic white man, and busted by his cop counterpart for ‘walking while being male, and poor.’

    But I have also satat the seat of power, andsuffered discrimination and ostracization, and every other sanction of non-conformity.

    And always there is this dialogue rattling around in these mens and often women’s minds that you, and others like you are the prize. That your dialogue translates to consumer dollars, and GNP. I don’t fault you for that; I fault you for projecting that he represents us–the other 60% of white America that isn’t seduced or influenced or privileged with power.

    And I suspect that those who are seduced by power get the results that you are getting–and every other white woman who decries rape, and violence.

    Rape and violence are the weapons used against everyone who seeks power–and that are used with impunity against those of us who don’t.

    And employing the biased, and biasing metaphor of WMP is counter-intuitive to speaking about an issue that affects us all.

    It is power, speaking to power, and whining about the results of the struggle for power: but it is NOT speaking for the statistical majority of WM’s, who are the only actual minority left (statistically). They are the current victims of those who seek power from all sides–the new boogieman; no longer actual rapists like Eldridge Cleaver, who rape to fight privilege ( so he said) but ‘possible rapists’ and maybe could be rapists’

    Why? Because the rest of us men are out here just trying to get through the day without being affected by the violence directed at us by those who seek power, uphold power, and struggle to create the perception that those who do not seek power are the enemy–every drug addict who ever was pushed into a prison cell, a mental ward, or a homeless shelter.

    Men do not enjoy the privilege of being believed–believe it or not.
    How?

    Let’s start with the fact that the police state wasn’t built to house YOU, white woman, and it certainly isn’t there to protect ME.

    You see, in some circumstances, I am the creepy guy–because women project that upon me if I don’t fit their profile ( do you know how many times in the last week I looked at a woman who first looked at me with projection in her eyes? I avoid them like the plague itself.)

    And walking to the other side of the street when too close to a woman? SURE, i AM GUILTY OF THAT, BUT i ALWAYS RESENT MYSELF FOR IT. THESE DAYS.

    I mean, that’s chivalry right? And as she walks away feeling safer, I walk away being reminded of the shit that could come my way if she freaked out and projected her fear on me. The entire system revolves around that EXACT point of chivalry.

    Where is her projection when Mr. Power suit shows up? It isn’t there, because she is too busy kissing the ass of what she thinks is power,playing the game, and wanting her piece of it.

    in other days I was the shining knight ( especially when I wore the power tools of power, the watch, the gold chain, the new suit, but of course, still open the door for those less than in their prime white women, who BTW never complained, and enjoyed the chivalry–which BTW is one way to avoid female projections, which carry the weight of the state! And oh yes, entertain her mind with charming, clever intellectual banter that is sensitive and woman focused!)

    –but both of them are bullshit roles that no woman really understands the complexity of–or the hypocrisy.

    Simple enough?

    I wrote more about WFP but really–what are you doing to attract that shit to yourself? I heard the whole rant that “it comes to us even if we are not looking for it!”

    But I also understand that Rebbeca is not at all innocent here: she has used an anonymous boogieman who so far hasn’t been able to speak for himself–she victimized HIM–while at the same time increasing her cultural capital in the circle of power–how ironic, right?

    How deliberate. How hypocritical.

    For my part, I stopped living in black neighborhoods, and being beat and tasered and robbed by cops and jumped by white boys (from behind most of the time) who came into the big city to get a slice of big city action–those cowards travel in packs.

    And I have decided that it is their mothers who bear guilt there, for creating such douchebags; and the fault, too, of white women who seek power by ignoring or denying their privilege.

    But I respect and appreciate any women who has learned how to fight, like I had to.

    • You’re combining many different and largely unrelated issues into an incoherent and rambling comment here that doesn’t seem to have a point to it, but I’ll try to address as many parts of it as I can.

      In the first part: the fact that men are often the victims of violent (and, yes, sometimes even sexually motivated) crimes, and not just women, is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. The important fact here is that rape and sexual assault happen, overwhelmingly, much more often to females than they do to males. We are, as a whole, genetically inclined to be less muscular, and socially trained to be subservient and non-violent. This physical and mental inequality puts women at a disadvantage in encounters with men, and creates a realistic basis for the fear of being sexually attacked and/or raped.

      In the second part: women do not “attract” rape and sexual assault. Merely being female is enough. Yes, there are things that we can do to lessen the risks to our person — but there is still no justification, ever, for sexual violence. Arguments like “she was dressed like a slut and that’s why I raped her”, or “it’s her fault for going to that seedy bar in the bad part of town” come up all the time in discussions like this, and they’re patently ridiculous. They assume that men are unthinking animals, being “bewitched” by women into acting with violence and stupidity. This kind of thinking is archaic and misogynist and completely intolerable, because it removes the blame from the criminal and places it upon the victim herself. Your statement of “what are you doing to attract the shit to yourself”? You sound like a fucking sexist pig. People should be courteous and civilized enough to not do stupid, assholeish, rude, or violent things, no matter what the provocation. If a man were walking down the street dressed in a silly costume, and another man punched him in the face, would the puncher get a lighter sentence in court by arguing “but your honour, this man was wearing a silly costume, he was inviting violence!” So why does a rapist get a lighter sentence because the woman was wearing fishnet tights and heels? It’s a double-standard that has only been held up because of the continuing male dominance in our society and justice system. Furthermore: there’s literally nothing a woman can do, no measure that is severe enough, to completely eliminate the threat against her. I can dress in baggy, unflattering clothing, let myself look scruffy and dirty, act like a violent bitch towards everyone I encounter …. and I’ll still get catcalled at an hit on. I know this for a fact. I’ve tried it in a fit of utter frustration at the male population. The nature of the attention changes, but the attention itself persists, because nothing that I can do is able to hide the fact that I possess boobs and a vagina.

      In the third part: your assumption that women don’t fear men who wear suits and ties is ridiculous. You’re comparing apples and oranges. A woman in a bar schmoozing up to a well-dressed man, or a woman at the office sucking up to her male boss, is a completely different situation from a woman alone in an elevator with a strange man, or walking down a dark street alone but for a strange man who is walking a few paces behind. Some situations are higher risk than others. It’s all a risk/reward assessment — just like it is for you. Like you might avoid dark alleys alone at night, so will women. Like you might avoid getting surrounded by unfamiliar people, so will women. And like you might make special effort to avoid men who wear gang colours or who look unkempt and “insane”, so will women. A man in a business suit has a lot more to lose than a homeless dude, and thus is more likely to abide by the laws. It’s not a sure thing, but it all gets plugged into the little equation we do in our brains when deciding how much of a threat this person we’re looking at might be.

      In the fourth part: why is it only the fault of the mothers, and not the fathers? For that matter, why is it not the fault of the schools, the media, and society as a whole? All have a role in raising a child. Parents (both mothers AND fathers) probably have the biggest role, but there are so many factors at play here — just saying “their mamas didn’t raise them right” is a cop-out.

      In the fifth part: it’s a sign of society’s great failings that violence must be the answer to violence. I didn’t learn to fight because I “had to”. I learned to fight because I love martial arts: the discipline and the physical control are enjoyable to me. I abhor violence. I would prefer never to have to use my martial arts training against another human being, ever. Any time that I must do so, it’s because something in the system has failed, badly. Society has failed in creating a person who would commit violent acts. And our system has failed in protecting me from those violent acts, if I must resort to violence myself in order to avoid being hurt or killed. Violence and destruction are NEVER the correct answer, and should not be respected.

  4. Oh, and BTW, I wasn’t meaning to direct all of that opinion from yesterday at you, personally, b/c you yourself seem logical, practical, and really cool about the issues.

    I was addressing the larger, more hypothetical and non-reality focused discussion, and realized I might sound kind of like a jerk if I left it on you alone.

  5. Thank you for your reasoned response. Yeah I get it about business suits, fighting is abhorrent, and all of that.
    Yeah, elevators arec scary at four a.m., etc.

    But I didn’t appreciate your comment about rambling–it was just a blog response to you, not a thesis statement to a professor, or a legal brief I was writing–and why do so many blog people use such demeaning language to people who actually read what you write? That’s a whole nother issue…but it is mean to say stuff like that sort of ad-hom.

    And I hope you are not yet another woman who is seeking gross satisfaction by perpetuating the cruelty of violence directed at males; and I hope you are not just another woman on the bandwagon of rape anxiety; because what I will tell you below is personal, and intended to enlighten you, not to provide you with more bile than the rhetoric of rape anxiety already has.

    And I tell you this because you actually seemed to parse out what it was I was saying, and you responded in a rational manner.

    But let me address this part of your response first:

    “statement of “what are you doing to attract the shit to yourself”? You sound like a fucking sexist pig. People should be courteous and civilized enough to not do stupid, assholeish, rude, or violent things, no matter what the provocation. If a man were walking down the street dressed in a silly costume, and another man punched him in the face, would the puncher get a lighter sentence in court by arguing.”

    I used the words ” what are you doing to attract that” because that is actually what men say to men, and women have said as well. Not to mention the whole thing about karma, or yin yang energy. It is also the inherent question in any cops language when a cop is called to situations of male violence.

    The onus is always on the victim to prove himself.

    I am disappointed in women every time i hear that men actually get prosecuted for punching other men; Do you know hopw bloody rare that is?

    And your analogy about wearing silly clothes is accurate except for the fact that male to male violence has a distinct in group out group dynamic. The saddest part in the whole debate is that most women have male friends who are clueless about male violence, as women largely choose manboys who sit idly by as yes men for female fear, but have seldom if ever been violated–I mean really violated, by violence.

    I will also say that I have endured more violence than the average man. Bullet wounds, stabbing wounds, broken bones, etc.

    For starters, let me just say that if a man is punched, as you posit, as often as not he faces the risk of being jailed because he called cops. You really have no idea at all, and women’s dis-missives about fear are insulting to those of us who have experienced violence from both women and men.

    In group dynamics of punchers are as such: your in a bar, some meathead decides to punch you for whatever meathead reason ( you looked at ‘his’ girl, you looked at him ‘funny’, and all that other bs) The key to punchers is this way: they are basically all cowards and they victimize males that are smaller, alone, and out-group.In other words, they usually have the back-up of their friends, and the women that are with them, so by the time cops come, you are the one labeled 1) offender 2) out group threat 3) or interloper, etc, etc.

    Cops are an entity that is an inherently dysfunctional yet socially integral to denying the effects of violence on men, and they ONLY uphold the “normative” meaning that any male victimized by in-groupers is instantly ‘non-normative,’ and likely to be re-victimized by cops.

    Once upon a time, it was easy to label black males as easily out-group, but these days, there is no paradigm for who is the ingroup controller of violence–and I suspect that has something to do with womens rape anxiety; I mean after all, isn’t it nice when the bad guys are easy to label and identify? Not so easy in a pluralistic society, but it still happens.

    Your comments generally seem angry, and exclusive, but I think your rhetoric works well when you stick to the facts–such as the egalitarian forms of violence we all face, and what we should do and must do about it.

    However, I think that being a woman, you have no idea about what forms of sexualization of males leads to males who are rapists. And sexualizing behavior is not merely sexist, it is the root of a rape culture.

    It is so easy for women to dismiss out-group opinions on the topic of rape because you are talking to (seeking audience) with males who want ingroup status, andfspeaking to females who have fallen to what womanists call “monolithic feminism” due to their fears.

    And worse, on the feminist bingo board, men with actual knowledge of the abuse that women perpetrate–not on huge grown men who are potential rapists, but on little boys, who can’t speak for themselves.

    But let me give you a clue about things that I am not alone in feeling, remembering, or experiencing as a YOUNG male, before I had to re-experience women’s rape anxiety and its projections, and its violence perpetrated against MY voice, I am certain I was raped dozens of times before the age of ten: If I NEVER have another auntie “hug me” while smashing her double D’s so deeply in my face that I literally could not breathe, I will be a man who can hear you; If I never have another woman stand there and shame me with my pants down or my red-slapped face in a corner because she ran out of language to discuss spilled milk with a four year old, I will get i; If Inever haveto see the neighbor woman fondling her sons penis through the crack in thedoor, while she “babysits” me, I can learn to listen to you; and if I never ever have another woman pinch the tip of my dick so hard that I cry–because I wet myself at three, I will understand your fears; and if I never ever have to face that wall, or stay in my room for a whole day because what I said about mom and the post man in front of dad, I will hear you, too.

    But for now, I have had enough of talking about rape anxiety, and not hearing about the horrors that little boys face when they are too small to rape, or fight against the female rapists that raise them.

    And I sincerely hope you can learn to listen too, and putyour fear and rage aside long enough to actually begin to solve the problem that creates rapists. You know, after all, some 30% to 80% of rapists report that they were sexually and physically abused by women when they were little boys. You can look the stat up yourself–that is if you actually care about the issue, and aren’t just “rambling on” to get attention.

    I mean rape is about power, right? Sure, “call the baby sitter, will ya hon? Mom needs to get out out of the house tonight”; that house often a scene of these unreported crimes.

    And sorry Virginia, but women’s violence has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion.

    • I tend to respond to blog comments in the same tone that I see the commenter using towards me. If commenters use respectful language, I’ll respond in kind.

      I’m not disagreeing with you that male/male and female/male violence is a bad thing. I’m definitely not disagreeing with you that misuse of authority by police and other such figures is a huge problem in our society. And I understand perfectly well that the race issue is a big one. I have a liberal arts degree and a healthy interest in human psychology and social structure — these are all things that I’ve studied in great depth.

      What I *am* disagreeing with is the attitude of “women are just whining about this stuff” that you seem to be projecting. It is a real issue, and the statistics alone are enough to show that women should be fearful for their safety. There’s ample justification for what you are dismissing as merely “rape anxiety”.

      I won’t get into discussions of “my hardship is bigger than yours”, because such discussions are completely based on perspective and opinion and are unproductive. So you’ve had a hard life. Good for you for surviving it (and I do mean that honestly, not sarcastically), but let’s move on and see what we can do with the knowledge that’s been gained. Complaining that your particular issue is not getting enough attention, and bashing another legitimately aggrieved group in the process, doesn’t help your cause in the slightest.

      Yes, many men who become rapists are from abusive backgrounds. But it’s not just the mothers who do the abusing — it’s fathers, other family members, strangers, priests, school teachers, older kids, and people who fit into dozens of other categories. And not every child who is abused will grow up to become an abuser or a rapist. Blaming mothers for creating rapists is still a very narrow-minded view, and it ignores the millions of other factors at play here.

      If you want to get your point across, you need to get it down coherently, without attacking other victims. Put it down into a statement of approximately 250-500 words, and then use that “mission statement” as a focus for your energies. Choose an overarching goal (ie, creating more awareness with the aim of solving the problem of child sexual abuse by parents and guardians), and then work specifically towards that, without getting caught up in anti-feminism or anti-privileged-white-folk-ism.

      I think that the reason you’re feeling that your point is being ignored? It comes down to the fact that you’re not making your point clearly, and are getting bogged down in attacking things which have nothing to do with your overarching intent.

  6. Again, you startle me with your open mind, and your calm head. I always wonder where that comes from in a person.

    Thank you for the excellent criticism. I will take it to heart and head, re:”then work specifically towards that, without getting caught up in anti-feminism or anti-privileged-white-folk-ism.”
    ( I will soon be posting a cartoon clip about that exactly–did you read my mind??!)

    But the sad fact is that I don’t see ducking my head in the consensual sand of the narrow discussions about rape or sexual violence that have a double standard and genderized ethics helps at all.

    In fact, the evidence is to the contrary. I have never seen one of these blog memes about how men suck, how men rape, how men blahblahblah does anything but hurt the larger issue. I mean, after all, men come out of women, right? I am seeking accountable women’s voices; I respond to that.

    And here is the irony which I tried to address over at my blog: it is this sort of negativity about men, which is so vocal, and so hurtful, which is the very primary stage of violence in all people–it is aggression, and it is female aggression which has a larger effect.

    I get it: “buck up girls” ( not you personally), and raise your sons to not be chauvinists and rapists and whatever it is that you think men are–because men, all men, are half woman . And other mothers are influenced by other women’s voices.

    But do women comprehend their role in perpetuating aggression? Based on the survey of the current trends in rapeologist dialogues, they don’t.

    And what I don’t get at all is why in the thirty years of generation rape, not one discussion, ever, anywhere on the net, have I seen anyone actually talking about what creates a rapist in any substantive manner; and the irony of that is explosive: if grown women say such things to grown men, what do they say, and then by extrapolation DO to children?

    And those are the children who can become rapists. And sure, men can abuse etc–but are their any more men in American homes? 72% of Af-Am kids born this year have no father; 40% of Detroit has only a mother from Detroit to tell it what reality is.

    You and I have both heard all there is to possibly hear about how men are this and that and fathers abuse this way and that, and men aren’t there for kids, etc; we heard that for thirtyplus years and once in a blue moon the meme of ‘sometimes women–sometimes, maybe, a little bit–contribute.’

    But that’s bullshit, because our society still lacks an actual definition of what specifically female perpetrated abuse looks like! We have no well known profile of this specific, and secretive form of abuse!

    My thesis is that it is this abuse that creates the rapist that everyone wants to fear, and wants to metaphorically beat up, but wants to know nothing about!

    And that is where the issue is drastically not the same, and requires a new voice, or a new method of input: no one anywhere even knows how to talk about it, or wants to.

    Sure, how easy is it to talk about fear of rape with a roomful of women, many available, and interested in engaging dialogues, and witty but socially focused banter that everyone agrees upon.
    Boys should be nice to girls, Duh. Don’t rape me when I’m drunk, got it.

    But have you noticed the general reaction that the topic of female sexual violence directed at young boys gets? Or how quickly any discussion of such issues gets an almost repulsive, distancing and minimizing response? That is a universal, and it has been for the fifteen years I have been talking about it.

    It is the sore spot of feminist dialogue, and there is consensus, both implicit and explicit that it is a topic off limits; and every discussion about rape has plausible deniability built into it that it doesn’t exist, officially; every discussion about rape has the qualifiers ‘but men men men’ attached as pre-requisites for discussion.

    There are examples every day, and I understand that packaging my message could maybe just maybe make the issue more tolerable–but I tried all of that to no effect.

    So I post a video about a woman who breast feeds her eight-years-old daughter in the hopes it will piss off the right people. And I use porn language to attract attention to it–maybe the one porn surfer who actually realizes what he or she is up against in that lonely webcrawl will find the rare piece of literature that validates their own shame.

    Those who should know better, who claim to want change only proves my point as such a claim is ridiculed off the map by those who value consensus over change.That’s what I am up against.

    And I take to heart any rare, good critic( I responded to you because your language was accountable) and hope that once in awhile someone who is searching for data about understudied topics stumbles across my lonely battle and that they might feel less alone. Hell, the internet is forever.

    • I think that the reason you’re encountering such resistance to your dialogue is that you’re taking a topic that is very close to home for many women (the stats disagree because rape reporting is so very, very flawed, but it’s estimated that about 1 in 4 women are raped at some point in their life, and the numbers may actually be higher … and I’ve yet to meet a woman, anywhere, ever, who has not been sexually assaulted at some point). And then you’re turning that topic into an attack on mothers. You’re using argumentative, insulting language, shock tactics, you’re oversimplifying the many complexities of the issue, and you’re being an apologist for what many people consider to be among the most horrific of crimes.

      This isn’t a topic that can be discussed using shock tactics, violent language, or anything but the most specific and scientific of data. And above all, it requires a sensitivity that your language and manner so far have not shown any indication of.

      Those “blog memes” that talk about how men suck, etc? They help because they encourage women to report when they are raped or sexually assaulted. Society tends very much to place the blame for rape on the victim, especially when that victim is a woman. Something akin to 60% (again, dealing with inexact statistics here because it’s rape and people don’t report) of female rape victims don’t report it because they fear stigmatization and blame, and they don’t want to have to re-live the incident over and over and over again as they describe what happened to one police officer and lawyer and judge and newspaper reporter after another.

      Now, obviously there are flaws with all of this — such dialogue does not cover rape of males by females, or rape of women by other women, or rape of people who are largely incapable of reporting (children, the mentally handicapped, etc). These are topics that are only just beginning to touch the awareness of the average person, and they can be very difficult topics to broach. The estimates of how often men raped by women actually report the crime? It’s something close to 10% (way lower than that 60% we’ve got going on with women), and once again those numbers are probably wildly inaccurate and overestimate the situation. I’ve never been able to find anything with numbers about rapes of women by women, but being in touch with the lesbian community (as a bisexual myself), I’m well aware that it does occur …. I’m not the only person who’s gone into the bathroom at a gay club to find a girl crying in a stall following an attack. and the resistance to reporting the crime is huge.

      But these sorts of discussions need to happen largely SEPARATELY from the existing rape dialogue. Teaching women to talk about rape, creating a place where their abusers and rapists are unwelcome and universally shouted down, that’s important. Without that sort of an environment (closed-minded and phobic as it may be), it’s almost impossible to get women to open up and even begin to deal with the issue.

      The other factor in play here is the simple fact that we don’t know what causes people to become violent criminals. One person from a poverty-stricken broken home with an abusive mother and an absent father may become a rapist, while another person raised in the EXACT SAME conditions will grow up to be a perfectly functional, non-violent person. We can’t blame the scenario, because it doesn’t always hold true. Doing so is like saying that bungee jumping will kill you, just because some people die while doing it. It takes other factors — in the case of bungee jumping, those other factors might be an inexperienced instructor or a frayed cord. In the case of the person who grows up to be a rapist, we don’t necessarily understand what all of those factors may be, but there’s psychological tendencies, genetics, media, time and place, other influences of various sorts to be taken into account.

      So when you come in with your argument that it’s women who create rapists because it’s women who raise their children wrong and teach them to abuse, you’re going to encounter a lot of resistance, because your statement is unjustifiable and shocking and hateful. And worst of all, it seems to take the blame off the criminal. No rapist is blameless, unless they are so mentally disabled as to be incapable of understanding their own actions. Blame needs to rest, in the end, on the criminal, no matter what factors may have led them to that life, because in the end it was THEM who committed the act.

      A dialogue about childhood sexual abuse (and this dialogue can even include the information that such abusive backgrounds often help to create people who grow up to be abusers and rapists) needs to happen separately from the existing rape dialogue. It is related, but it is not the same discussion, and it cannot eclipse or preclude the existing discussion. And it needs to happen with understanding and compassion, taking into account all of these many other factors that are in play, and being careful not to couch itself in apologist language.

      If you can’t discuss it in such a manner, you’re really only hurting your own cause, because you’re going to turn people off before you ever get them understanding.

  7. I don’t know what you are saying about being an apologist, because I certainly do not condone rape or rapist behavior. I also am no fan of the Swedish model, as per the Julian Assange debacle, and as a man I take this legal trend as a threat.

    I also think Ana Ardin should be investigated.

    I do not apologize for rapists because I despise them, but I perhaps despise false rape accusers as much, and people who make a living from demonizing men and playing on fear, even more.

    As to tactics, sure, I understand the whole language thing, but I also understand that Nikki Craft, Dworkin, et al, weren’t saying what they said and buttering it up for the ordinary male ear.

    They mocked men, they literally threatened men ( remember the WASP campaign?); they invaded the locker rooms and the board rooms to get their point across. and they deliberately did not use language that was designed to please. They created shocking , horrifying mental images.

    But it is really hard to not name your enemy, once you know who it is.

    As an egalitarian, I don’t see the use of pandering language, and specifically do not want to ‘dummy it down’ or use ‘maternal tactics’ to address the issue, i.e. ” how are you honey. Is sweetie o.k.? Do you want to talk about the bad things?”

    “No, that’s o.k., we can talk when you are ready…”

    –we see where that ends up: it really goes nowhere, which is why I believe shock and awe can work. I get it about language, and again, you are a very valuable critic, but I think I need to work with more people who are aware already–go talk to the choir some more.

    Unfortunately, I probably dislike MRA’s as much as anyone, especially when they get into the whole young girls and NAMBLA, crap, but there are the ones who get it–sort of.

    I will be addressing them soon, and seeking alliance to some degree, but I think I need to plod forwards and believe that I am on to something. If I don’t do that, this horrid incrementalist mentality about leveraged civil rights might not evolve in my lifetime.

    • I don’t see how you can possibly claim to NOT be a rape apologist when you’re using statements like “I blame the mothers” and “what are you doing to attract that shit to yourself”.

      I also don’t see why you think that the current rape dialogue is useless, when it’s been seen that it is helping. Women are reporting sexual violence more and more often, and seeking treatment afterwards to prevent the spread of STDs and to alleviate the psychological damage. The cultural dialogue as a whole is shifting away from the archaic idea that women are to blame when men “lose control” and rape them — more and more, people are understanding that it is the rapist, and only the rapist, who is to blame.

  8. Sure, there is that issue of ultimate accountability. But I believe the inherent flaw is that we do not address fatal assumptions about what creates rapists, and I believe that isolating the rapist as somehow an organic deviant that sprang from the earth like a mushroom in spring is flawed logic.

    If absolute feminist gynotopia was dropped on the earth today, I suggest that rape would still happen, but would be redefined in the sense of feminist criminology, i.e., women would be held accountable.

    If you never ever read anything I write, I am addressing the idea that men are inherently rapists–we are not; and I think that idea is fundamentally a smoke screen against viewing the issue holistically.

    Here is some discussion about that exact idea, men are inherent rapists by definition as male, versus redefining definitions of rape, that would protect males:

    http://pornalysis.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/are-all-women-potentially-pedophiles-greg-laden%E2%80%99s-theory-of-evolutionary-biology-predicts-that-they-are/

    In no way am I saying the dialogue isn’t crucial, but I am saying the dialogue is as inflammatory–and eventually useful–as dropping depleted uranium on middle eastern kids. Someone always benefits, and can portray benefit even from despicable acts, once certain human beings are “othered” and dehumanized.

    • I’m not saying that men are inherently rapists, I’m saying that rapists are accountable for being rapists. If you want to look at the underlying factors that may have affected them and increased their likelihood of becoming rapists, then by all means go ahead and do so, but do NOT use those underlying factors as a way of blame-shifting and making rape somebody else’s fault. Rape is the rapist’s fault, period.

      But just because the vast majority of men are utterly harmless and wouldn’t even dream of raping a woman, doesn’t mean that women shouldn’t be on guard against rapists, nor that men shouldn’t be ready to prove that they aren’t a part of that minority. It’s the vast minority of restaurants that will give you food poisoning, but we still look for the health board certificate on the wall before ordering.

  9. “But just because the vast majority of men are utterly harmless and wouldn’t even dream of raping a woman, doesn’t mean that women shouldn’t be on guard against rapists, nor that men shouldn’t be ready to prove that they aren’t a part of that minority”

    Part one: agreed. Part 2 is the hard part. It is the artificial high bar that forces men to once again-‘go out of their way,’ and not egalitarian at all.

    And I for one find great joy in walking the fine line between food poisoning, and cultural or culinary bliss…more often than not, the risk pays off, and the one or two times I ate the poisoned sushi were hilarious,, even if at the time I was literally running by the time– well, let’s not get into that…

    And maybe it is an age thing. At twenty or so, I was still embodying the stereotypes and rocking the boat, but actually, I was naive, and still learning.

    These days I mostly know what the rapists, the bullies and the killers look like. But the worst by far have always been those who don’t know what or who they are–they can develop into anything on a whim, or a provocation.

    • I’m not sure what you see as non-egalitarian about this: women go out of their way to protect themselves against sexual assault and rape, therefore men should go out of their way to help. Both genders are going out of their way here, not just men. Asking the onus to be entirely on women, for us to judge at a split-second whether there is a threat or not, without any easy clues or indicators being given? That sounds a lot less equal to me. Especially when the threat to women is so much greater.

      “These days I mostly know what the rapists, the bullies and the killers look like.”

      Mostly. That’s the key word, here. There’s no assurances, ever.

      To put this into a different light, without the gender bias: I look like a punk kid (well, a punk twenty-something, but you get the idea). I regularly get followed around stores and such by the staff because they’re worried I might steal something. So when I go into a store, I try to say hello to the staff, smile, and not make suspicious movements with my hands. It helps them to do their job, and makes my day more pleasant. This is all I (and most women) are asking of guys. Be pleasant and innocuous. Show clearly that you’re not doing anything wrong or being a threat. It makes everyone’s day nicer.

  10. @”I’m not sure what you see as non-egalitarian about this: women go out of their way to protect themselves against sexual assault and rape, therefore men should go out of their way to help. Both genders are going out of their way here, not just men.”

    Maybe it is the way I view egalitarianism. I am well aware that feminists posit that egalitarianism is not possible within patriarchy and so forth; I always reply “bonobos, man”–being snarky, because of the chimp=violence thing, so…bonobos =?.

    And I also believe that patriarchy and matriarchy co-exist, every minute every day, with the difference being that women who have power employ a victim stance, whereas men with power employ a preemptive war stance ( ironically, the same thing!)

    So egalitarianism would also not be possible within matriarchy.

    So, extracting myself from both competing structures, I find this: I remeber being a frail boy, and a rape victim. I remember learning to fight, and later being blamed for “my” violence. So whereas I fully and respectfully adore your perspective about going out ofones way, I posit that it is for all of us to go out of our way for each other.

    I agree with you in principle, and I empathize fully with you in fact. However, I think the difference is this: I went out of my way to learn violence, and sadly, it was what was covertly expected from me, embodied male. Also, I already knew about ‘being a gentleman’ because a large part of my boys life was “don’t hit girls’ for which I would be soundly beaten if such was even implied.

    I was always a gentleman, and it got me nowhere, because girls beat me up too. I had to learn to fight both boys and girls, but I was suspected of being a larger threat! ( there’s irony)

    So, when you went out of your way to learn violence, it seems ( apparently?) like you should not have to do that–and I agree also.
    Neither you nor I should have to do that–but then, who will?

    And that is the violence we can address together: systemic violence directed at boys and girls by SEPARATING boys and girls. That is what we should fight. And like it or not, sex is part of that equation between allies.

    Yet the main difference is this: the powerful are well aware of how effective it is to posit that men are all rapists, and won’t help women. But I ask: help women do what? Any more or less than I do anyways? But it isn’t George Bush getting the false rape charge thrown on him; it isn’t a finger pointed at Barbara Bush who raised him.

    It is Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a leftist, and Julian Assange, a free speecher, who get the rape charges.

    Before I fully insert my foot in my mouth here, let me just say that I hear you. I can come back to this later.

    But I want to share with you something I am readingand will be writing about soon. Puberty rites and rituals.

    In S. Africa, there is a customary coming of age ritual for girls in part of the country. Feminists and ethno-biologists have long wondered what the ritual entails( notice the curiosity about others sexual practices? Feminists and anthropologists tend to put their social voyeur impulses into a ‘scientific’ caqtegory, thus they are unaccountable for their own rape impulses).

    So the rumours say this: girls are herded off, theirclitorises are cut off and an animal horn is put inside their vaginas. Sounds scary, huh?

    Well it turns out that none of this happens at all, but the WHO and others arte all frothy about the possibility ( developing hypotheses about the sex of others is what allows for the western culture to have a pretext to invade countries–think ‘Islam and FGM’, which is real, but also none of my business, per se.)

    Anyways, once the ritual is observed, it is found that
    1) the group who has not undergone the ritual is scared to undergo the ritual. They believe in the horn and FGM idea; they beloieve the ritual is a threat to culture.

    2) those who have undergone the ritual enjoy the ritual every year, and view it as an opportunity to socialize and share staories, dance and laughter, as well as get away from the men for awhile.

    3) most surprisingly, the disconnect between ‘fantasy’ and ‘reality’ is clear: and westerners exploit that disconnect.

    Upon concluding observation of the ritual(s) the anthropologists conclude several things, but I will focus on just two of them:
    1) the idea of the horn and excision is to scare the girls, and it is done to draw a boundary between adult and child, but also to create incentive for later social responsibility.

    2) those who are scared of the rituals, or repeat falsehoods about the rituals essentially ‘mark themselves’ as outsiders who cannot be relied upon to report facts clearly.

    I bring this up as a short form way to say this: I believe that the rape anxiety that is in ample evidence here in America is founded–but to a far lesser degree than one would imagine, and then, that this is a form of marking the uninitiated within our culture–a way of telling us the ;’virgins’ from the ‘old maids’ and mothers, as well as the men who do not know or understand women.

    But because we are not a village in Africa, it has a far more insidious effect: that of dividing the virgins into a pot that is owned by both men and women, and divvying up the profits that can be made from exploiting such fears.

    I guess this is way too long here, so choice a) cut off everything at the top, b) cut off this part about rituals, and just leave it at ” we agree that guys should also go out of their way to understand” or c) let you decide how they tie together.

  11. Firstly: I did not go out of my way to “learn violence”. I was 9 when I started taking karate lessons, and it wasn’t because I wanted to learn to “beat people up”. It wasn’t even because I wanted to learn to protect myself. It was because I was given the option of continuing with my gymnastics lessons, or switching to something else, and karate appealed to me as a solitary activity with high physical demands and a lot of competitiveness. The head sensei at my club was also a family friend, and learning from someone I knew was appealing.

    As I did more and more karate and got into seriously competing and such, I actually became LESS violent as a person. Martial arts teach restraint, personal control, and most importantly that you should never, ever use your abilities to hurt other people unless it is absolutely, positively, completely unavoidable.

    Learning karate does not equal learning violence. It means learning physical and mental control. The ability to defend oneself or others in extreme cases where there are no other options? That’s just a sideline.

    Evidently your personal journey towards learning to control your physicality did not contain any lessons in controlling yourself mentally, since you obviously can’t tell the difference between situations where violence is called for and situations where it is not. Being a non-violent person is necessary for being a functional adult in our society. People who embrace principals of violence are seen as a threat, and society is RIGHT to view things in that way.

    This is getting off topic, but I did feel it was necessary to address it. The idea that martial arts are about violence is a common misconception, but it is a grossly incorrect assumption and you come off as ignorant and offensive when you make such claims.

    Moving on.

    You seem upset about the trials of Strauss-Kahn and Assange — why? Allegations of sexual assault and rape SHOULD go to trial. They should be examined carefully. If there is basis found for the allegations, they should go to jail. If they’re found innocent, they should be set free and treated as such. But as these are both trials still in progress, there’s really nothing to be gained in this particular discussion from bringing up said trials — without knowing the conclusion of the investigations, you’re only speculating (rather wildly) that these men are victims of classism.

    You’re clearly missing the point with your little story about genital mutilation. Genital mutilation does occur in many cultures and is widely documented — it is an abomination being committed upon those too young and inexperienced to make an informed choice about body modifications. Stories like yours about how it’s all made up to scare people? Hurtful idiocy. Even if there are isolated cases where the ceremonies are exaggerated or even entirely made up, the fact remains that such ceremonies DO occur, and need to be fought against.

    Your theory about how rape anxiety is supposed to somehow create a demarcation between virgins, mothers and old maids? It’s sheer drivel, with nothing backing it up. All women have rape anxiety to some degree or another, no matter whether they are young or old, virgins or extremely experienced. That’s not the differentiating factor, because ANY female is at risk. It’s not just the young, beautiful, and virginal that rapists prey upon. Even dying, sick, old women in nursing homes get raped sometimes, because rape isn’t about sexual attraction. It’s about power and hatred.

    A person doesn’t rape because they feel sexual attraction. A person rapes because they want to have control over the one being raped, or because they want to cause harm. The reasons WHY a person might feel the need for that kind of power and control are extremely varied, but what it comes down to in the end is the same.

    So yes, some women might rape little boys — because they want to control those boys, because they feel devalued in their life by men and want to hurt or control a man, because they are simply frustrated by the downtrodden nature of their own existence and just need to have control over SOMETHING, or because of some other reason entirely; there are thousands of possibilities. But in the end it’s about control. Just like a man might rape a woman in order to control her, to “teach her a lesson”, because he feels he’s superior and wants to prove his power and control, because he hates his mother, to get out his own frustrations at his life, or a thousand other things.

    The fact remains that we live in a society where men are encouraged to devalue and control women, and that this encourages the rape of women by men. The statistics back me up in here saying that far, far more women are raped by men than any other combination (children raped by women or men, men raped by men, women raped by women, etc). This points to an overall societal attitude that is unhealthy, and needs to be fought against through such means as the current rape dialogue.

  12. re “Your theory about how rape anxiety is supposed to somehow create a demarcation between virgins, mothers and old maids? It’s sheer drivel, with nothing backing it up”

    It isn’t my theory–it’s derived from Freud. And why do you sound so mean about it? Does science scare you? I mean, if you want it backed up, I suppose you could parse my thesis when its ready, but that is just one story, and not all of the conclusions are mine–they come from other ethnographical evidence.

    The author who did the piece I read is here:
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Maluleke%2c+Thelmah+X.-a1778

    and here: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Health+SA+Gesondheid/2003/September/1-p5778

    First of all, it was not a “little story,” ( that is kind of a demeaning tone there–if you would rather not talk, cool, just say so, but save me the meanie stuff) it is a BIG story–big because it examines what is said about an event, and what is feared about an event, that in fact is a non-event–and particularly, that such event is an example of the western ‘normative’ attempting to corrupt culture.

    There are other examples in the ethnographies–tons of them, about western people with agendas propagandizing, and then using the people of other regions via the invasion of their collective consciousness.And especially by invasion of their sexual consciousness.

    No one is disputing the 97% FGM statistics of Egypt, for instance–but why do you react so bitterly to another piece of ethnographic evidence, with a non-normative approach? Is it because you have been–despite identifying as Goth, and unique and all–perhaps you actually are quite “normal” underneath it all–that your view of western cultural Imperialism is that it is “natural and normal”?

    And aboutstatistics? Have you looked at how the sex exploitation statistics are created lately? Or Janet Swim’s method of defining ‘sexism’? “Germany and the US are the same..” she says, despite legalized prostitution and health care for prostitutes in Germany, and Victorian moral crusade here in the US that hurt women and girls–and especially gay male sex workers.

    And oh, I guess on that note I forgot to mention the “Hidden Boy Report” from Health Canada, which has been out there for years reporting that boys are raped all the time, is still ignored by this current wave of rape minimizers, and sex negative feminists.

    http://www.canadiancrc.com/The_Invisible_Boy_Report.aspx

    Again, It looks like I would have to save and parse your response, before I can fully address some of the innacuracies or incorrect assumptions about my experiences, intents, purposes, etc.; semantical digressions, really.

    I will get back to you, and again, if exchanging mean-ness or snarks is what it is all about, I can avoid this discussion.

    Meanwhile, after three generations of feminism literally praying, hoping, and demanding that men get raped–voila! They got their wish! 22% of men in the Congo are raped–and that is the tip of the iceberg of the effects of cultural imperialism.

    http://pornalysis.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/289/

  13. e-like.ro…

    […]Women in Elevators, Stray Dogs, and the Privileged White Male Delusion « DomestiGoth[…]…

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